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  • Yes, it is according to the 2 sources theory (i.e. Matthews as well as Luke being based on Mark and Q) that the authorship of the gospel of Matthew by the Apostle Matthew himself is cast in doubt, as a true apostel wouldn´t have to rely on other textual sources for his gospel.
    First off, the whole theory that there is a 'Q' is very, very recent. We have no evidence that a Q existed in terms of the manuscripts. There hasn't been any document whatsoever that has been found with the characteristics purported to 'Q'. So it's speculative whether or not one actually existed.

    Secondly, you are assuming that someone writing a Gospel would rely only on their own testimony. I don't think that at all. We do see many similarities between all the Gospel accounts, and I think part of that is that they rely on the same eyewitnesses for certain parts. I have no problem with the authors of the Gospel relying on more sources then just themselves, that would increase the reliability of the accounts. It seems pretty reasonable to me that even if they witnessed things that they would consult other people who were there for the earthly mission of Christ.

    As for John the dispute is rather complicated. In the text itself it is never mentioned that John was the author, it only mentions a "beloved disciple" which, for strange reasons in importenes where it appears in John doesn´t appear in the other gospels (for example no other gospel states that John was upon crucifixation asked by Jesus to take care of his mother, but instead the other gospels say that all disciples had deserted Jesus to this time or on the last supper, where the "beloved disciple" asks jesus who the tritor is, whereas in the other gospels the disciples ask this among themselves). But it is never mentioned that the author himself claims to be this beloved disciple.
    It is also believed that the gospel of John has a dual authorship, with the first part ending at John 20 and the second part which is the only part where the author is identified with the beloved disciple being a later addition and beginning in 21.
    By whom? John is different because it was written after the others by about a gap of 25 years or so. It's been the tradition of the church since it was written that John wrote it after the synoptic Gospels, and that hasn't seriously been challenge.

    It's one thing to speculate as to dual authorship, but who would write the other half? Are they both similar in terms of style in the Greek? You would have to see differences along that divide in order to further this hyporthesis, and it's never been suggested that John 20 marks any kind of division in the book.

    In contrast, we can look at Hebrews. The tradition was never clear who wrote the book, it shows the influence of Paul, and the ideas are consistant, but it has a much better Greek then Paul's. The fathers of the church have a diversity of opinions as to who wrote it whereas with John there has been no question.

    Then earliest attribution to John seem to be made by Irenaeus around 180 AD.
    What about Polycarp?

    But do we have extrnal sources as well that confirm the things done by Jesus?
    Tacitus and Josephus along with Suetonius also mention Christ and his disciples.

    AFAIk only Flavius Josephus mentions Christ during his lifetime, with an account that seems to be later have been altered by a christian writer (as Josephus couldn´t have stayed Jew if he himself really had thought that Jesus himself is Christ)
    That's a pretty big assertion there. Either Josephus is reliable or he is not. If it were any other subject then it would be unquestioned, but it's rather odd the only objections to his accuracy come when he's talking about Christ.

    I've read the passage, and irony is used by historians. I can see a Jew saying, "he was the Christ!" to mock the claim, which by then would have been well known.

    As for letters, look at the bible, Acts of the Apostles and all the Gospels. They are a collection of sources, not written by one person and should be considered as such.

    Anyways, what you say about the Roman Archaelogical evidence, check out the road to Jericho sometime. It's exactly how Christ describes the road. They have found evidence of crucifixions at Golgotha, as well as tombs that are similar to those of Christ. The archaelogical evidence confirms many of the details referred to in scripture.
    Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
    "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
    2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

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    • Shouldn't people be trusting their own heart when it comes to things like Christ, rather than arguing over dry scripture to try and rationalize their belief?

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      • ALL HAIL Q
        APOSTOLNIK BEANIE BERET BICORNE BIRETTA BOATER BONNET BOWLER CAP CAPOTAIN CHADOR COIF CORONET CROWN DO-RAG FEDORA FEZ GALERO HAIRNET HAT HEADSCARF HELMET HENNIN HIJAB HOOD KABUTO KERCHIEF KOLPIK KUFI MITRE MORTARBOARD PERUKE PICKELHAUBE SKULLCAP SOMBRERO SHTREIMEL STAHLHELM STETSON TIARA TOQUE TOUPEE TRICORN TRILBY TURBAN VISOR WIG YARMULKE ZUCCHETTO

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        • Originally posted by Blake
          Shouldn't people be trusting their own heart when it comes to things like Christ, rather than arguing over dry scripture to try and rationalize their belief?
          Huh?

          The Christians in this thread have not been holding up the Bible, and saying that people must beleive that Christ was the son of God because of it. Or even holding up the Bible and saying that God must exist.

          What the Christians have been doing is showing how uninformed most atheists are about the Bible and it's validity. That the earlier letters in the new testament were definitely written at a time when many living people were alive when Christ was alive (which makes saying that Christ never existed not only a matter of faith, but a matter of lacking rationality (once again note that this says nothing about whether He was the son of God or merely a fraudster/etc)).

          We Christians aren't trying to rationalize our belief. We know that our bleief is based upon Faith. But our belief is that Christ was the son of God... it wasn't that Christ existed. Any human being who is rational admits that there is just as much evidence for Christ's existence as Plato's or most anyone else from that era.

          There is no need for your condescension.

          JM
          Jon Miller-
          I AM.CANADIAN
          GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

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          • Interesting that you got defensive rather than just agreeing with me.

            What I'm saying:
            It doesn't really matter that much what the words say, they are stale and old anyway and of course there will be inaccuracies in them. They were words invented by humans, written by humans, they are imperfect.

            What matters, is what is in your heart.

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            • Originally posted by Blake
              Interesting that you got defensive rather than just agreeing with me.

              What I'm saying:
              It doesn't really matter that much what the words say, they are stale and old anyway and of course there will be inaccuracies in them. They were words invented by humans, written by humans, they are imperfect.

              What matters, is what is in your heart.
              It was the way you said it.

              JM
              Jon Miller-
              I AM.CANADIAN
              GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

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              • Originally posted by Blake
                What matters, is what is in your heart.
                A chunk of bacon?
                APOSTOLNIK BEANIE BERET BICORNE BIRETTA BOATER BONNET BOWLER CAP CAPOTAIN CHADOR COIF CORONET CROWN DO-RAG FEDORA FEZ GALERO HAIRNET HAT HEADSCARF HELMET HENNIN HIJAB HOOD KABUTO KERCHIEF KOLPIK KUFI MITRE MORTARBOARD PERUKE PICKELHAUBE SKULLCAP SOMBRERO SHTREIMEL STAHLHELM STETSON TIARA TOQUE TOUPEE TRICORN TRILBY TURBAN VISOR WIG YARMULKE ZUCCHETTO

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                • Shouldn't people be trusting their own heart when it comes to things like Christ, rather than arguing over dry scripture to try and rationalize their belief?
                  Consider that John's Gospel starts with this:

                  εν αρχη ο λογοσ



                  I'm not sure we can have 'dry' scripture if God is the Word.
                  Last edited by Ben Kenobi; January 4, 2008, 19:51.
                  Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                  "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                  2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

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