Peter Jackson signs on for the Hobbit

[Patroklos]

His armies were still in Mordor. It's just not that far from Mordor to Gondor.

His armY that attacked Gondor was in Mordor. His ArmIES had to have been on the move long before the attack on Minus Trith to have been in any position to attack anywhere else between the loss at Minus Trith and the final defeat of Sauron (a week at most?). Unless you think Sauron's forces marched all the way to Dale from Mordor in a few days AND engaged in a battle in that short time frame.

Not to mention the forces assigned to reduce Rohan had already attacked and been defeated, so they obviously weren't in Mordor.

So the disposition of Sauron’s forces was set long before Aragorn reached Erech. Sauron had two choices, attack or not, his other troops wouldn't have reached him in time to assault Minus Trith on schedule. Not that it matters, Sauron did pick the right force distribution for what he knew, the ghosts were out of the blue.

He was a tad paranoid, it appears. But apparently Aragorn could've done some serious damage. Hell, Gil-Galad + Elendil took Sauron down when Sauron was wearing the Ring.

They never explain HOW that happened though did they? Unless you believe simply severing off his finger was good enough, in which case the "Ring of Power" is no more awesome than any other piece of armor.

Gandalf himself, in either one of the LOTR epilogues or in the ring chapter of the Silm (I forget which) says that one of the good things about Bilbo having gone with the dwarves, is that Dale and the dwarves were there to save the North, else there would be no free North to return to even if Sauron was defeated

So? As it was Sauron's forces fled in terror when he was killed. Do you think it was beyond the capability of the now victorious allied armies, who just destroyed Mordor, to clean up a backwater of no importance after the fact?

Now look, Patty, you may not like Arwen being important, but can you at least admit that PJ, in making her important, was being true to JRRTs larger vision?

There are millions of teenage girls who will swear up and down that Justin Timberlake is important, it doesn’t change the fact that he isn't.

I realize JRRT thinks Arwen is, and perhaps intended to make her, important but that is not born out in the trilogy and its appendices OR the silm. She serves no purpose other than being Aragorn's mattress. If she was supposed to be important JRRT should have written her as such. He didn't, so she is not.

Civ doesnt model logistics, or at least not well. Even if Elrond had lots of force to send (and beyond his sons and the force of rangers, he didnt have much - just Glorfindel and a handful of Elves who could really fight) he couldnt move them south easily.

Gandalf and Elrond knew this war was coming for decades, if not centuries, yet it appears exactly NOTHING was done to prepare for it conventionally.

There is no excuse for the pitiful garrison at Minus Trith and the general force structure of Gondor as a whole, especially the fact that not a single elven regular was present.

And why was it hard to move south? There wasn't a single significant military force in the way in the West. Sauraman has the East path locked down, perhaps they elves of Lothlorien should have done something about that, especially while he was still building strength, instead of sitting on their ass

Aside from which, if Elrond sends every damned battle worthy elf south, that pretty much TELLS Sauron the ring has gone south and isnt still in Rivendell, which otherwise Sauron doesnt know for sure.

No, it doesn't. What it tells Sauron is that Elrond has at least one brain cell and can figure out that Gondor is the key to the war for BOTH sides. In all honesty, and obviously, the allies should have been mustering their army in Gondor years before.

Seeing that neither side knew what the end disposition of the ring was going to be, both should have fought the conventional war as competently as possible. Neither side, but the allies and the elves (extra emphasis) especially, did so.

Hell, for all these guys knew the ring could have ended up in a cave for the next 1000 years, AGAIN. Either depending on it to carry the day would have been, and was, stupid.

Youve always got to be prepared for uncertainty in war, no? Now I dont agree that the ghosts are a fluke - the story of the ghost and Elendil ought to be known by now to Sauron - whos had hundreds of years to gather intell on Gondor, afterall.

But he didn't know about Aragorn, or if he did far too late to do anything about it. If he HAD known about Aragorn, you can bet the ringwraths would have paid a visit to the North about 40 years earlier. Or a million, orcs, take your pick.

Gandalf doesnt trust himself with the ring, why do you think hed trust the eagles with it? The eagles arent perfect creatures, either - next thing you know, Frodo is being fed to some hatchlings, and a screaming eagle wearing a ring on its talon is lord of Middle Earth.

Apparently he trusted them enough to count on them for his rescue from Orthanc (in the movie), and apparently they are good hearted enough to rescue Frodo from Mt Doom for no good reason other than its a nice thing to do (proving Mordor's air defenses suck ). Hell even ringwraths aren't going to stop a couple hundred eagles, they were to busy galloping along the Great East Road at the time anyways.

As far as he knows, Aragorn IS taking the ring to MT. He just might want to have considerable margin of conventional force.

It’s either one way or the other. I realize Arrian said that, but you two seem to be of the same mind. And he did have a good margin of conventional forces. Enough to crush the allied armies even after the Minus Trith debacle had it not been for Frodo.

[quote]But an ideal defensive position.[quote]

Which one? A town in a mountain where you can't grow anything? Easy seige.

That’s beside the point. The place is a backwater. Most of the humans were killed by Smaug when he burned their town to the ground or during the battle of the five armies. All the regions around it were wastelands or sparsely populated (did Bilbo run into ANY human development after crossing the Misty mountains all the way to Long Lake?).

There is simply nothing there. Maybe, MAYBE, a couple thousand human warriors augmented by some dwarves and some elves from Mirkwood. Sauron is commanding armies in the hundreds of thousands at least. Maybe millions. Dale and its surroundings are irrelevant given the scale of other events at the time.

The last time Sauron knows for sure where the ring is, when Frodo puts it on in front of the wraiths, just before getting to Rivendell. After that, all Sauron has is probabilities.

You don't think the resurgent Sauron has any contacts with the dark forces in Mordor?

And what about when Frodo puts the ring on during Boromir's betrayal?

and look, I dont think he can ever be 100% sure the ring has left rivendell.

Sauron would be happy if this is the case. He doesn't want it being used against him, right. He would know exatly where it was the first time someone claimed it, let alone trained with it. As long as it is not at mount doom and not being used, Sauron should care less about it. Destroy the conventional forces, search for the ring later.

Obviously he was doing a pretty good job of ****ing up the incompetent humans and lazy elves without the ring. Even after he learns it was found from Gollum and that it is in the hands of his enemies, the allies have made no effort to use the ring. Sauron is money, and he doesn't even now it

You dont treat eagle kings like friggin canaries. that'll be sure to piss em off.

You can ask nicely though (which is apparently what happened) or bribe them. Free cattle for a hundred years maybe?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
I get so tired of people going "duh" all the time here.

This place sucks.

well d'uh.

[Patroklos]

BTW, I am going to stop responding to everything, because my posts are getting too long.

I shall pick my battles from now on. Teach on Tolkien scholars

[lord of the mark]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Patroklos

I realize JRRT thinks Arwen is, and perhaps intended to make her, important but that is not born out in the trilogy and its appendices OR the silm. She serves no purpose other than being Aragorn's mattress. If she was supposed to be important JRRT should have written her as such. He didn't, so she is not.

I think its pretty clear from the appendices and the Silm how important she is.

Gandalf and Elrond knew this war was coming for decades, if not centuries, yet it appears exactly NOTHING was done to prepare for it conventionally.

Shows that theres no substitute for good staff work, huh? I can just imagine a work of fantasy, where Gandalf, instead of focusing on ringlore, and hobbits and stuff, starts up a war college in Rivendell to train the staff officers who will develop the logistics, the plans, the weapons systems to fight the war. Actually there ARE books like that, and for the most part they are horribly boring.

There is no excuse for the pitiful garrison at Minus Trith and the general force structure of Gondor as a whole, especially the fact that not a single elven regular was present.

Its a feudal society, they only mobilize on imminent threat. And their ties to the elves make US-Pakistani relations look like a lovefest.

And why was it hard to move south? There wasn't a single significant military force in the way in the West.

No logistics bases, the areas deserted. No large pre-industrial army could move through without a large force of accompanying slaves.

Sauraman has the East path locked down, perhaps they elves of Lothlorien should have done something about that, especially while he was still building strength, instead of sitting on their ass

Theyre dealing Orc raids from both directions, they dont have the force to spare.

No, it doesn't. What it tells Sauron is that Elrond has at least one brain cell and can figure out that Gondor is the key to the war for BOTH sides. In all honesty, and obviously, the allies should have been mustering their army in Gondor years before.

Which allies? Which armies?

But he didn't know about Aragorn, or if he did far too late to do anything about it. If he HAD known about Aragorn, you can bet the ringwraths would have paid a visit to the North about 40 years earlier. Or a million, orcs, take your pick.

He doesnt know about Aragorn in particular, he should know theres SOME possibility of SOME heir of Elendil popping up from somewhere and calling on the ghosts. I mean Sauron had it all figured out back in Numenor when the friggin Valar pulled the rug out from under him, he has to know theres ALWAYS the possibilitiy of something unexpected.

Apparently he trusted them enough to count on them for his rescue from Orthanc (in the movie), and apparently they are good hearted enough to rescue Frodo from Mt Doom for no good reason other than its a nice thing to do (proving Mordor's air defenses suck ). Hell even ringwraths aren't going to stop a couple hundred eagles, they were to busy galloping along the Great East Road at the time anyways.

Im not saying he doesnt trust them to be strong enough to pull it off- im saying he doesnt trust that Gwaihir wont be corrupted by the Ring.

It’s either one way or the other. I realize Arrian said that, but you two seem to be of the same mind. And he did have a good margin of conventional forces. Enough to crush the allied armies even after the Minus Trith debacle had it not been for Frodo.

Actually I am arguing both ways. First I said that Sauron dividing his forces makes his generalship appear poor, but then I said that some would excuse it based on the possibility that the Ring is still in Rivendell. Im not advocating for the latter position - I think JRRT just didnt think this one through, in fact. But I dont think the stretched argument is absolutely impossible, if you really want to reconcile JRRTs writing to military rationality.

You don't think the resurgent Sauron has any contacts with the dark forces in Mordor?

huh?

And what about when Frodo puts the ring on during Boromir's betrayal?

hmmm. Its not made clear in the books if Sauron actually realizes whats happening at that moment. Anyway, by THAT point the forces headed north have probably already gone.

Sauron would be happy if this is the case. He doesn't want it being used against him, right. He would know exatly where it was the first time someone claimed it, let alone trained with it. As long as it is not at mount doom and not being used, Sauron should care less about it. Destroy the conventional forces, search for the ring later.

He doesnt know what Elrond, who already has an elvish ring, could do with it in the North. Its enough of a risk to justify diverting SOME force to the North.

Obviously he was doing a pretty good job of ****ing up the incompetent humans and lazy elves without the ring. Even after he learns it was found from Gollum and that it is in the hands of his enemies, the allies have made no effort to use the ring. Sauron is money, and he doesn't even now it

Sauron doesnt know that "his enemies have it" he only knows a hobbit named Baggins has it. His intell on the Shire isnt that good.

You can ask nicely though (which is apparently what happened) or bribe them. Free cattle for a hundred years maybe?

I was refering to the notion of sending Radagast to talk to them.

[lord of the mark]

I like the way weve proven that Dick Cheney really WAS Sauron.

"Ghosts, aint gonna be no friggin ghosts, 150,000 orcs is more than enough, this is gonna be a cakewalk"

[Patroklos]

I think its pretty clear from the appendices and the Silm how important she is.

What exactly does Arwen do in the Silm except exist?

What exactly does Arwen do in the Appendices except pop Aragorns kids, who as far as we know have down syndrome or died in a Misty Mountains ski accident at 16?

Shows that theres no substitute for good staff work, huh? I can just imagine a work of fantasy, where Gandalf, instead of focusing on ringlore, and hobbits and stuff, starts up a war college in Rivendell to train the staff officers who will develop the logistics, the plans, the weapons systems to fight the war. Actually there ARE books like that, and for the most part they are horribly boring.

He sure as hell doesn't mind boring us to death with the minutia of Hobbit tea time. How about he replaces the tenth description of poppie seed cakes with this:

Gandalf: "Hey Elrond, how did all those plans we fleshed out 40 years ago concering the fortifications of Gondor work out?

Elrond: "Oh that? Gandalf my good man, I fishished all that decades ago. In fact, I added 20 extra 20" walls around Minus Trith besides the 100 we agreed upon because, hell, I didn't have anything else to do for the past 20 years!"

Elrond and Gandalf: "HAHAHAHAHA LOL YOU ARE TEH FUNNY!!!"

What did that take up, a quarter of a page?

Its a feudal society, they only mobilize on imminent threat. And their ties to the elves make US-Pakistani relations look like a lovefest.

They had an imminent threat. In fact it was imminent for at least 40 odd years.

And your analogy is bad. The Elven/Man alliance is more like NATO. The Men of Middle Earth prudently spent their time maintaining a war machine that is used to do all the heavy lifting in any crisis while the Elves spent all their time singing songs and brushing each others hair and are nowhere to be seen when the curtain lifts (though they still seem to think they get a say in things). I am sure you can figure out who plays what roles.

No logistics bases, the areas deserted. No large pre-industrial army could move through without a large force of accompanying slaves.

It didn't seem to stop pre industiral Earth armies at all. I mean, they only had 40 years to do it. Its not like the elves are getting any older. In any case, one donkey load of lembas (sp?) should get a battalion odd elven warriors anywhere in Middle Earth they wish to go.

Or how bout this? Write one less song and build a damn north south road.

huh?

That should have read "You don't think the resurgent Sauron has any contacts with the dark forces in Moria? Sorry.

He doesnt know what Elrond, who already has an elvish ring, could do with it in the North. Its enough of a risk to justify diverting SOME force to the North.

I am sure that Elrond might write some pretty sweet Elven death metal under the influence of the Ring. But again, as soon as Elrond tried anything, Sauron would know where he was. There is simply no scenario where the Ring, used by anyone but Sauron, has any effect on the immediate events. Unless the thing comes with a tutorial, Saurons armies are going to do what Sauron's armies do regardless.

Sauron doesnt know that "his enemies have it" he only knows a hobbit named Baggins has it. His intell on the Shire isnt that good.

He most certainly does by Weathertop. It doesn't matter though, if someone other than his enemies has it (like Gollum), it is of even less concern to him.

I like the way weve proven that Dick Cheney really WAS Sauron.

It was a completely out of the blue event, you can't fault him for it. As it is, even with that secret weapon, Aragorn STILL messes things up by releaseing the ghosts too early. What the hell Aragorn?

Honestly, the ghosts are basically the Tolkien equivalent to ST/SW wank. And absolutely invinsible and limintless weapon. I am glad Tolkien realized this and had him let the ghosts go at the coast, but he still give no reason for that to happen.

It is unsuprising that Jackson picked up on the wank and ran with it, being oblivious to what Tolkien no doubt realized.

[Arrian]

Gondor's "pitiful" military situation is due to its being weak. It's not unprepared (in the book). The movie makes it seem so, and does a disservice to Denethor in that regard.

In the book, Denethor does all that he can to defend Gondor... it's just not enough on its own.

As for the elves, yes, they're quite passive by the end of the third age. This was a problem I had with the book at first, and the reason I came to accept the change in the movie that has Hladir & Co. show up at Helm's Deep.

What are we even arguing about at this point?

Oh, right, Arwen. Like I said before, we simply have to agree to disagree. The appendices contain the tale of Arwen and Aragorn, and between that, the main text of LotR, and other texts like the Simarillion, I think her importance is clear. She's not a top-tier character, no. But she's not a bit part, either.

As for "why didn't they just have the Eagles take the ring and drop it in Mt. Doom LOL PNWT!" well, two things:

1) Eagles are useful air assets, sure. So are Nazgul mounted on fell beasts. So even if you figure the Eagles are immune to the ring's corruption (unknown), they can't necessarily just waltz into Mordor & drop the ring in the fire. edit: granted, if this is somehow done *immediately* after the Nazgul are unhorsed in the Rivendell flood, it might stand a chance. So, see #2

2) No story if that happens. Let it go.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Honestly, the ghosts are basically the Tolkien equivalent to ST/SW wank

The term you're looking for is Deus Ex Machina. And, well, yeah.

-Arrian

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian


The term you're looking for is Deus Ex Machina. And, well, yeah.

-Arrian

Its more'n that, though. As some reviewer pointed out, Tolkien was a veteran of the Great War. The idea, to a soldier, of ones fallen brethren rising and fighting again, is powerful. Its about betrayal, and loyalty, powerful "feudal" themes. And its about sin, and the ability to make amends and thus resolve ones after life situation, which is a Christian theme. And its about affirming Aragorn as the true heir of Elendil, which is a huge LOTR theme. and its about a sudden turn about on the battlefield, which is good story telling.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Patroklos
He sure as hell doesn't mind boring us to death with the minutia of Hobbit tea time. How about he replaces the tenth description of poppie seed cakes with this:

Gandalf: "Hey Elrond, how did all those plans we fleshed out 40 years ago concering the fortifications of Gondor work out?

Elrond: "Oh that? Gandalf my good man, I fishished all that decades ago. In fact, I added 20 extra 20" walls around Minus Trith besides the 100 we agreed upon because, hell, I didn't have anything else to do for the past 20 years!"

Elrond and Gandalf: "HAHAHAHAHA LOL YOU ARE TEH FUNNY!!!"

.

Patty, theres apparently a whole genre called "military Scifi" maybe you should try reading some of that?

[Dis]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST
IMHO they are very good if you don´t expect a 1:1 transfer from Tolkiens books to the screen.
If you expect this you can only get disapponted.


They´re hhowever the best Lord of the Ring Movies that are out there to date.

that's the thing, I never read the books.

The movies just seemed a little cheesy and despite heads being lopped off, innocent.

I was "supposed" to like this movie as I'm part of the target audience. But it just doesn't sit right with me.

And it's not like I can't sit through slow movies. I enjoy many dramatic movies. More so now than when I was younger. But some scenes just drag on forever. For what purpose? The most famous of these is the end of the last film, and the gay scenes. But even the first movie has such scenes.

[Alexander I]

Well, considering The Hobbit will be two films, instead of one, expect to see the following non-canonical cameos:

Arwen in Rivendell
Young Aragorn in the wilds or at Rivendell
Legolas in Mirkwood
Young Gimli with the Army of Dain
Baby Frodo born in the Shire
Saruman, Galadriel, etc. at the Meeting of the White Council
The Moon Moth, anytime Gwaihir is around

Since they're most likely trying to use the second Hobbit film to bridge the gap with the Lord of the Rings, I can foresee the filmmakers utilizing any or all of these cameos to help "make the connection" in uninitiated viewers' minds.

[BeBMan]

Now since also Gandalf is free again, they'll soon start filming:

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by Arrian

... 4 [dwarvish rings] destroyed by dragonfire.

-Arrian

That's what they want you to believe.

[Cort Haus]

Back to the added/removed debate - the Old Forest, Tom Bombadil and the Barrow Wight are removed from the film.

And if Pat can read the trilogy in under 9 hours I take my hat off to him.