Peter Jackson signs on for the Hobbit

[Lorizael]

Just so you know, guys, this is fascinating. Keep it up; I'm taking notes.

[Arrian]

[Arrian]

They were deployed, just not engaged. The forces that were going to attack, were already attacking, or had already attacked (Rohan) were already in their theatre of operations.

His armies were still in Mordor. It's just not that far from Mordor to Gondor.

And I don't see why Aragon having the ring really mattered to Sauron. Aragorn still wouldn't have been as powerful as Sauron, and we have sceen what rings do to men.

He was a tad paranoid, it appears. But apparently Aragorn could've done some serious damage. Hell, Gil-Galad + Elendil took Sauron down when Sauron was wearing the Ring.

Btw, whatever happened to the rings given to the dwarves?

3 recovered by Sauron, 4 destroyed by dragonfire.

-Arrian

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Patroklos


And back to Elrond/Lorien/Dale/Rivendell. Like you said as well, Gondor was the key, so it was ridiculous for the allies to waste forces defending irrelevant places while Gondor was in the process of being reduced. They should have sacrificed the others to save Gondor.

Gandalf himself, in either one of the LOTR epilogues or in the ring chapter of the Silm (I forget which) says that one of the good things about Bilbo having gone with the dwarves, is that Dale and the dwarves were there to save the North, else there would be no free North to return to even if Sauron was defeated, and there would be "no queen in Gondor" Evidently Gandalf, and by extension, JRRT, thought of Arwen as VERY important.

Now look, Patty, you may not like Arwen being important, but can you at least admit that PJ, in making her important, was being true to JRRTs larger vision?

[lord of the mark]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Patroklos

So you are telling me that with the situation as dire as it was at the focal point of the war Elrond decides to SPLIT the allied forces? Elrond is obviously a ****ty civ player Keep you eye on the ball your highness.

Civ doesnt model logistics, or at least not well. Even if Elrond had lots of force to send (and beyond his sons and the force of rangers, he didnt have much - just Glorfindel and a handful of Elves who could really fight) he couldnt move them south easily. Aside from which, if Elrond sends every damned battle worthy elf south, that pretty much TELLS Sauron the ring has gone south and isnt still in Rivendell, which otherwise Sauron doesnt know for sure.

If you think that shows bad generalship on the part of Sauron, who had the forces to spare and in fact lost the battle at Minus Trith over a fluke (the ghosts) that the mininal forces sent to Dale probably wouldn't have helped counter anyway, you must really thing Elrond is a ******.

Youve always got to be prepared for uncertainty in war, no? Now I dont agree that the ghosts are a fluke - the story of the ghost and Elendil ought to be known by now to Sauron - whos had hundreds of years to gather intell on Gondor, afterall.

Of course all the battles are stupid anyways, since all the good guys should have done is had eagles fly Frodo directly from the Shire to Mt Doom in the first place. Ring gone, Sauron gone, story over

Gandalf doesnt trust himself with the ring, why do you think hed trust the eagles with it? The eagles arent perfect creatures, either - next thing you know, Frodo is being fed to some hatchlings, and a screaming eagle wearing a ring on its talon is lord of Middle Earth.

[Arrian]

There is a pretty good list of changes from book to film for each of the three movies up on the Encyclopedia of Arda, by the way.

-Arrian

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Patroklos

Well then yeah, that was stupid of Sauron. But Sauron did have the forces to spare.

As far as he knows, Aragorn IS taking the ring to MT. He just might want to have considerable margin of conventional force.

I still don't think the scale of this is anything great. Dale was burned to the ground only 30-40 year before, plus the casualties from fighting over the lonely mountain, and Eredor was sparsley populated. We are really talking about two small towns.

But an ideal defensive position.

But he would have know that the party, and the ring, had been there.

The last time Sauron knows for sure where the ring is, when Frodo puts it on in front of the wraiths, just before getting to Rivendell. After that, all Sauron has is probabilities.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Patroklos

Btw, whatever happened to the rings given to the dwarves?

Minus another Tolkien geek point.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Gandalf doesnt trust himself with the ring, why do you think hed trust the eagles with it? The eagles arent perfect creatures, either - next thing you know, Frodo is being fed to some hatchlings, and a screaming eagle wearing a ring on its talon is lord of Middle Earth.

Maybe get Radaghast the Brown, Radaghast the Bird-tamer on the case.

[lord of the mark]

and look, I dont think he can ever be 100% sure the ring has left rivendell. He knows it got there. he knows a party has moved south, including Gandalf. Its not even clear that he knows Aragorn is with the party, or that Aragorn is a the heir of Elendil. It COULD be that Gandalf has the ring, or that Gandalf is continuing to let the hobbits hold it, while controlling them. And G is heading to Minis Tirith with it. Or it could be that Elrond has the ring, and the Fellowship is a feint. Sauron probably thinks 90% the former (which is why he expects Saruman to have it after Saruman captures the hobbits) but he cant be 100% certain.

He only knows who Aragorn is (and suspects he has the ring) after Aragorn shows himself, and sword that was broken, in the Palantir. He still doesnt KNOW if Aragorn has the ring. Indeed, the attack on the gates of Mordor is done precisely to increase Saurons belief that Aragorn has the ring.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Cort Haus


Maybe get Radaghast the Brown, Radaghast the Bird-tamer on the case.

You dont treat eagle kings like friggin canaries. that'll be sure to piss em off.

[Cort Haus]

And who sent Gwaihir on errands around Middle Earth, for him eventually to rescue Mithrandir from Orthanc on bringing news of Smeagol's escape from Mirkwood?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
And who sent Gwaihir on errands around Middle Earth, for him eventually to rescue Mithrandir from Orthanc on bringing news of Smeagol's escape from Mirkwood?

well duh, Gwaihir will listen to Gandalf - Gandalf is the emissary to elves and men, and listening to him makes Gwaihir the equal of an Elf lord or king of men, not some kinda parakeet. Rhadaghast is a, you know, BIRD tamer.

And Gandalf can no more absolutely control Gwaihir, then he can Faramir or Denethor or Theoden.

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by lord of the mark

well duh, Gwaihir will listen to Gandalf - Gandalf is the emissary to elves and men, and listening to him makes Gwaihir the equal of an Elf lord or king of men, not some kinda parakeet. Rhadaghast is a, you know, BIRD tamer.

And Gandalf can no more absolutely control Gwaihir, then he can Faramir or Denethor or Theoden.

Plus, IIRC, on some prior occasion, Gandalf saved Gwaihir's life and nursed him back to health from a grievous wound. Gwaihir feels he still owes Gandalf. That's also why he and his eagles help to rescue Gandalf, Bilbo, and the Dwarf party from the Goblins in the Hobbit, IIRC.

As for Radagast the Brown, he is criticized for sitting on his duff in Rhosgobel as a hermit and not fully acting on his commission as one of the Istari. I can picture Manwë lecturing him like this: "I sent you to Middle-Earth to help save the world, not to take up zoology!"

I believe it's in "Unfinished Tales" where Tolkien discusses Manwë and the Valar giving the Istari their commission. Manwë and Varda intended for Olórin (Gandalf) to lead the group, but Curumo (Saruman) jumps in and steals the thunder. Olórin graciously acquiesces and agrees to play second fiddle to Curumo.

[Cort Haus]

I get so tired of people going "duh" all the time here.

This place sucks.