Peter Jackson signs on for the Hobbit

[DanS]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Arwen (she shows up for a 1/4 page or something in the books), the ghost army, most of the stuff with Faramir/anything happening in Osgiliath...

The ghost army? Other than expanding its role somewhat so that it has a role at the gates, the movie was pretty faithful to the books.

Also, I don't think it's too bad to dramatize something that wasn't dwelled on too long in the books. In my opinion, that's creative license.

[Combat Ingrid]

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Patroklos


When they make that movie they can feel free to include it.

Not as part of the main Silm plot, the story of the first age. Theres a section at the end, about the story of the rings, that includes some discussion of the attack on Dol Goldur, under the prompting of Gandalf, and backed by Galadriel, after earlier opposition by Saruman. Its during the period of the Hobbit. If PJ is gonna see the movie as basically a prequel to LOTR, rather than as a standalone story with a totally different feel and atmosphere, it would make sense to include that.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Patroklos


Arwen (she shows up for a 1/4 page or something in the books), the ghost army, most of the stuff with Faramir/anything happening in Osgiliath...

The funny thing is they cut out whole portions of the story while adding stuff that added nothing and changed the story quite a bit.

You might have pasted the wrong quote into post #26, Pat, but if you're responding to my question, I'll give you Osgiliath, but I'm sure that Arwen gets more than a 1/4 page, and while there's a bit of licence wrt the ghosts impact on the battlefield and perhaps the meeting, I don't think there was a great deal added for them.

The biggest addition for me was the battle with the cave-troll. I always felt that the CG dept said "hey, we can do a great cave-troll", so they went to town on it.

[Patroklos]

The ghost army? Other than expanding its role somewhat so that it has a role at the gates, the movie was pretty faithful to the books.

The ghosts do nothing more than let Aragorn and company though the caves so they can gather Gondor's living army from the southern provinces. Well, I shouldn't say nothing more, they followed Aragon as he marshaled the force and drove off the Corsair fleet when they were at the coast, but there Aragorn gave them their freedom.

They don't participate in the battle at Minus Trith at all, while in the movie that is the only reason Gondor was victorious at all. In the books, Gondor's saves itself.

Also, I don't think it's too bad to dramatize something that wasn't dwelled on too long in the books. In my opinion, that's creative license.

There is dramatizing like adding defensive Trebuchets( (WTF???) and the giant elephants which you hear very littlr about during the battle in the book.

Then there is completely manfacturing things, like Arwen at Weathertop which alters the story line.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Patroklos


Arwen (she shows up for a 1/4 page or something in the books), the ghost army, most of the stuff with Faramir/anything happening in Osgiliath...

The funny thing is they cut out whole portions of the story while adding stuff that added nothing and changed the story quite a bit.

The ghost army is definitely in the books, and is very important. It just doesnt show up on the Pelennor fields. In the books, the south Gondor feudals show up on the Corsair ships, and it isnt explained how they got there, till Gimli and Legolas tell the ghost army story to Merry and Pippin later.

Arwen definitely gets more than a quarter of a page, and shes also quite important - just not as active, and not in conflict with Elrond (not this late, anyway). PJ's decisions on that, like with the Osgiliath scene, are pretty controversial. I consider myself a Tolkien geek, and I can accept that PJ wanted to make some significant changes to make the flow of plot work better cinematically (which I think is why he changed the Faramir character, making him less goody-goody then in the book) and wanted to have stronger female characters.

In any case, the added material is not why the movies are so long - he took out alot as well.

[Patroklos]

You might have pasted the wrong quote into post #26, Pat

I did, fixed

but if you're responding to my question, I'll give you Osgiliath, but I'm sure that Arwen gets more than a 1/4 page,

You see her once in the books. Frodo sees here and Aragorn on a hill in Lothlorien (I always spell that worng) from afar, but can tell something is going on.

Thats it. Aragorn does recieve a banner of Gondor from her via messager before going into Erech with the ghosts, but she isn't there.

You see her again in the Epilogue, but I don't consider that part of the main story, nor was it covered in the movies.

and while there's a bit of licence wrt the ghosts impact on the battlefield and perhaps the meeting, I don't think there was a great deal added for them.

They were never at Minus Trith.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Patroklos


The ghosts do nothing more than let Aragorn and company though the caves so they can gather Gondor's living army from the southern provinces. Well, I shouldn't say nothing more, they followed Aragon as he marshaled the force and drove off the Corsair fleet when they were at the coast, but there Aragorn gave them their freedom.

They don't participate in the battle at Minus Trith at all, while in the movie that is the only reason Gondor was victorious at all. In the books, Gondor's saves itself.

Really, no. First, if theres no ghost army, the southern Gondorians cant come to Minis Tirith, they have to stay and try to fight off the corsairs, and they dont seem likely to even manage to do that. Second, Gondor needs the Rohirrim. Third it needs the Aragorn himself, and his followers (gimli, legolas, a couple of elves, and a bunch of rangers, who also land at MT along with the south Gondorians) Fourth, it needs Gandalf, who fights with the witch king and saves the life of Faramir in the battle the day before the siege.

The whole point of the battle of the Pellenor fields, is its an ALLIANCE victory - Gondor ALONE would certainly have fallen.

[Patroklos]

In any case, the added material is not why the movies are so long - he took out alot as well.

I know, he took out good stuff and added crap.

[lord of the mark]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Patroklos
"You see her once in the books. Frodo sees here and Aragorn on a hill in Lothlorien (I always spell that worng) from afar, but can tell something is going on."

Im pretty sure shes present at Rivendell, though her contacts with Aragorn are pretty discreet.


[q]You see her again in the Epilogue, but I don't consider that part of the main story, nor was it covered in the movies.[q]


It serves to flesh out the Aragorn - Arwen relationship, and is canonical.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Patroklos


I know, he took out good stuff and added crap.

yeah, damn that Tolkien, he took out the good stuff about Wotan and Fafnir and all, and gave us Hobbits instead.

[Patroklos]

First, if theres no ghost army, the southern Gondorians cant come to Minis Tirith, they have to stay and try to fight off the corsairs, and they dont seem likely to even manage to do that.

So again, like I said, the ghosts make no apperance at the landside battle. In the movie the ghoast defeat both the fleet AND the land army.

Second, Gondor needs the Rohirrim.

Yes I should have mentione that, but the charge of the Rohirrim fails. It is the arrival of fresh Gondor forces that carries the day in the book.

Hell, in the movies, if Aragorn had just bought the ghosts to Minus Trith FIRST and then the fleet, no good guys would have died at all.

Third it needs the Aragorn himself, and his followers (gimli, legolas, a couple of elves, and a bunch of rangers, who also land at MT along with the south Gondorians)

That would have made good cinima, but hey, we will just have TEH ****ING SAAWEEEET CGI ghosts do everything.

Fourth, it needs Gandalf, who fights with the witch king and saves the life of Faramir in the battle the day before the siege.

Faramir didn't do crap for anyone after he was wounded. He might as well have died.

The whole point of the battle of the Pellenor fields, is its an ALLIANCE victory - Gondor ALONE would certainly have fallen.

True. Too bad the ghosts get all the credit

Hell, why the hell didn't Aragon send the ghosts to go take out Minus Mogal and half of Mordor while they were at it. Its not like it was hard work for them as we see in the movie, or like they could say no.

[Patroklos]

It serves to flesh out the Aragorn - Arwen relationship, and is canonical.

She adds nothing to the plot in the books, just a nice humanizing thing to develope Aragorn. She really is irrelevent.

And she wasn't at Rivendell. You might remember that the greatest warriors and wizard of the age had enough trouble getting to Lothlorien themselves

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Hell, why the hell didn't Aragon send the ghosts to go take out Minus Mogal and half of Mordor while they were at it. Its not like it was hard work for them as we see in the movie, or like they could say no.

Im not saying I LIKE the way the ghost treatment takes place. I also dont like the conflation of the two Rohan charges into one. But I understand why it works cinematically, and why the movies couldnt have precisely followed the books.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Patroklos


She adds nothing to the plot in the books, just a nice humanizing thing to develope Aragorn. She really is irrelevent.

On the contrary, she provides the motive force for Aragorns assertion of the kingship. Unlike the films, where Elrond is unreconciled till near the end to her match with Aragorn, in the books (and yes, its in the epilogue, or maybe the Silm) Elrond is reconciled to her marrying him IF and WHEN he becomes king - because the reestablishment of the line of kings will require it, and because he will accept her choosing mortality for nothing less.

The reunification of "the long sundered lines of the halfelven) is an event of almost messianic significance, tying up loose ends reaching back to the first age. Its very important.

Remember, JRRT was first a linguist and mythologist - LOTR was created to have a world that would have the first age stories as its mythological background.