Peter Jackson signs on for the Hobbit

[Patroklos]

DP

[Patroklos]

if youve ever read the appendixes, youd know that Rivendell sent forces to help defend the lonely mountain and dale from mordor aligned forces striking north - and there are repeated attacks by orcs on Lorien.

Which has absolutely jack to do with the complete destuction, barely, of 50% odd of Mordor's forces at Gondor. If the lonely mountain had fallen, so what. If Gondor had fallen, which if very nearly did, all bets are off.

So you are telling me that with the situation as dire as it was at the focal point of the war Elrond decides to SPLIT the allied forces? Elrond is obviously a ****ty civ player Keep you eye on the ball your highness.

Now this may show poor generalship on the part of Sauron (he has internal lines, he should be concentrating all his force on Minis Tirith, not sending against folks too far away to aid Minis Tirith - but I suppose the response is Sauron doesnt know for sure where the ring is)

If you think that shows bad generalship on the part of Sauron, who had the forces to spare and in fact lost the battle at Minus Trith over a fluke (the ghosts) that the mininal forces sent to Dale probably wouldn't have helped counter anyway, you must really thing Elrond is a ******.

Of course all the battles are stupid anyways, since all the good guys should have done is had eagles fly Frodo directly from the Shire to Mt Doom in the first place. Ring gone, Sauron gone, story over

[Arrian]

In the movie, the elves at helms deep fired volley after volley of arrows, and one more after the wall had been breached. They then charged with their swords (stupid, yes), against pike/sword-wielding orcs and died in the melee. The "sychronized sword swipes" was from the beginning of Fellowship, during the Galadriel-narrated recap of the War of the Last Alliance (2nd Age). So, sorry, but you're confused.

Arwen is a key character, but that importance is only fully revealed by Tolkien in the appendices to LotR and also in the Simarillion, IIRC. If you don't like that, well, that is Tolkien's fault.

-Arrian

[Patroklos]

In the movie, the elves at helms deep fired volley after volley of arrows, and one more after the wall had been breached. They then charged with their swords (stupid, yes), against pike/sword-wielding orcs and died in the melee. The "sychronized sword swipes" was from the beginning of Fellowship, during the Galadriel-narrated recap of the War of the Last Alliance (2nd Age). So, sorry, but you're confused.

Hmmm, I shall watch that again. I distictly remember that elven commander telling his guys to hold their fire (even though they each had what looked to be 30 odd arrows), but it appears I am wrong here.

Arwen is a key character, but that importance is only fully revealed by Tolkien in the appendices to LotR and also in the Simarillion, IIRC. If you don't like that, well, that is Tolkien's fault.

If I delete all mention of Arwen from the trilogy, what changes?

Exactly.

[Arrian]

Sauron's generalship is crappy. In the book, he sends out the following armies:

1) Attack on Gondor
2) Attack on Rohan via Cair Andros (defeated by Ents)
3) Attack on Lothlorien (defeated by elves)
4) Attack on Dale/Erebor (defeated by elves, men, dwarves)

I didn't recall Rivendell sending aid to Erebor/Dale. Even if he did, the dufus is clearly Sauron. The key, as you said, was Gondor. Crush Gondor and you're in business (setting aside, of course, the ring). But the ring is the key to the whole shebang. So the excuse Sauron has (not a particularly good one, IMO), is that he was flailing about going for the ring, not knowing where it was.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Patroklos


Hmmm, I shall watch that again. I distictly remember that elven commander telling his guys to hold their fire (even though they each had what looked to be 30 odd arrows), but it appears I am wrong here.

There is a moment before the battle actually starts, where a human (old guy) mistakenly fires an arrow, killing an orc. Aragorn shouts to hold fire, IIRC. The Orcs charge, Aragorn & others order fire. Theoden says so it begins... and they're off.

If I delete all mention of Arwen from the trilogy, what changes?

Exactly.

Aragorn, to the extent that he even becomes the Aragorn we know in LotR (and therein lies the key), probably marries Eowyn. The Numenorean and Half-Elven lines are not reunited, though the kingdoms of Gondor and Rohan are even closer than they already were - potentially unified, depending on Eomer. Faramir needs to find a different wife.

The point LotM is trying to make, and I agree, is that Tolkien saw Arwen-Aragorn as quite important. He couldn't work it into the story, though, which is one way you can critique his writing, frankly. So he stuck their story in the appendices.

Beren-Luthien. Tuor-Idril. Aragorn-Arwen. This is a central theme in Middle Earth. Hell, Tolkien's tombstone has "Beren" on it, and his wife's has "Luthien."

-Arrian

[Patroklos]

1) Attack on Gondor

Yeah, but the attack on Gondor really should have succeded. I don't fault Sauron for not knowing about the ghosts (or if he did, not knowing about Aragorn). Conventionally speaking, he had Gondor in the bag.

2) Attack on Rohan via Cair Andros (defeated by Ents)

That was Sauraman, and though in league with Saruon had his own designs. But yeah, Sauraman is no Belesarius either.

3) Attack on Lothlorien (defeated by elves)

We really have no idea what the scale of this attack was.

4) Attack on Dale/Erebor (defeated by elves, men, dwarves)

We really have no idea what the scale of this attack was.

So the excuse Sauron has (not a particularly good one, IMO), is that he was flailing about going for the ring, not knowing where it was.

I don't think he really had to flail. He knew exactly where the ring was headed, just put a legion at mount doom and be done with it (it worked for Emperor Palpantine ).

At the very least, he knew the ring was at Moria, so no need to search any further north than that.

And back to Elrond/Lorien/Dale/Rivendell. Like you said as well, Gondor was the key, so it was ridiculous for the allies to waste forces defending irrelevant places while Gondor was in the process of being reduced. They should have sacrificed the others to save Gondor.

[Patroklos]

Aragorn, to the extent that he even becomes the Aragorn we know in LotR (and therein lies the key), probably marries Eowyn. The Numenorean and Half-Elven lines are not reunited, though the kingdoms of Gondor and Rohan are even closer than they already were - potentially unified, depending on Eomer. Faramir needs to find a different wife.

So basically everything that happens in the triology stays the same, only the appendices change.

The point LotM is trying to make, and I agree, is that Tolkien saw Arwen-Aragorn as quite important. He couldn't work it into the story, though, which is one way you can critique his writing, frankly. So he stuck their story in the appendices.

To the overall mythology sure, very important, agreed. To the characters living in the trilogy who don't give a **** about ancient elven royal f#ck buddy symetry, it means nothing. In fact, those pairs you mention from Middle Earth history are responsible for most of the **** storm the trilogy characters are dealing with.

[Arrian]

Yeah, but the attack on Gondor really should have succeded. I don't fault Sauron for not knowing about the ghosts (or if he did, not knowing about Aragorn). Conventionally speaking, he had Gondor in the bag.

He knew about Aragorn, because Aragorn revealed himself in the Palantir before taking the Paths of the Dead. He was blindsided by the Army of the Dead, it's true. Then again, what he "knew" about Aragorn was that Aragorn had the ring... so he thought he was attacking a Gondor that had a ring-wielding Aragorn leading it.

2) Attack on Rohan via Cair Andros (defeated by Ents)

That was Sauraman, and though in league with Saruon had his own designs. But yeah, Sauraman is no Belesarius either.

No, it was not Saruman. Saruman had already been defeated. This was an army from Mordor. Trust me on this, dude, I've read the book over and over.

3) Attack on Lothlorien (defeated by elves)

We really have no idea what the scale of this attack was.

Not really, no.

4) Attack on Dale/Erebor (defeated by elves, men, dwarves)

We really have no idea what the scale of this attack was.

Actually, this one we do. It's a big battle. IIRC, both the kings of Erebor and Dale are killed. They are defeated, in fact, and holed up in Erebor, unable to get out and hopelessly outnumbered, when Sauron is destroyed/defeated. This wrecks the morale of the(heretofore winning) Orcs etc. and leads to eventual victory for the good guys. But they're all sortsa beat up.

I don't think he really had to flail. He knew exactly where the ring was headed

No, he did not. Tolkien repeatedly makes the point that Sauron didn't (couldn't?) imagine the idea of trying to destroy the ring. He believed that the ring would probably go to Minas Tirith and Aragorn or some other would claim it and attempt to use it against him. He only figured it out when Frodo placed the ring on his finger inside of Mt. Doom and claimed it as his own.

At the very least, he knew the ring was at Moria, so no need to search any further north than that.

He didn't have full control over the Orcs in Moria. The Balrog, had it attained the ring, would've been more powerful than he (Balrogs are of the Maiar order, the same race Sauron is part of).

And back to Elrond/Lorien/Dale/Rivendell. Like you said as well, Gondor was the key, so it was ridiculous for the allies to waste forces defending irrelevant places while Gondor was in the process of being reduced. They should have sacrificed the others to save Gondor.

Sure, except those places were people's homes. There were going to defend them. The only clear "mistake" would be sending forces from Rivendell to anywhere but Gondor.

Elrond *does* send his two sons to help Aragorn, bringing with them the Dunedain Rangers from the North.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

To the overall mythology sure, very important, agreed. To the characters living in the trilogy who don't give a **** about ancient elven royal f#ck buddy symetry, it means nothing.

Well, I guess I consider the appendices to be a valid part of the LotR, and you don't. On this we will simply have to disagree.

In fact, those pairs you mention from Middle Earth history are responsible for most of the **** storm the trilogy characters are dealing with

Um, no. Those pairs are responsible in large part for averting total disaster.

If you want to lay blame, aside from Morgoth/Sauron, you can feel free to heap it on Feanor and the various elf leaders who led the Noldor back to Middle Earth in defiance of the Valar.

-Arrian

[Patroklos]

He knew about Aragorn, because Aragorn revealed himself in the Palantir before taking the Paths of the Dead. He was blindsided by the Army of the Dead, it's true.

The forces were already deployed by then, most of them already engaged. I don't think there was much that Sauron could do at that point (withdraw I guess).

No, it was not Saruman. Saruman had already been defeated. This was an army from Mordor. Trust me on this, dude, I've read the book over and over.

Well then yeah, that was stupid of Sauron. But Sauron did have the forces to spare.

Actually, this one we do. It's a big battle. IIRC, both the kings of Erebor and Dale are killed. They are defeated, in fact, and holed up in Erebor, unable to get out and hopelessly outnumbered, when Sauron is destroyed/defeated. This wrecks the morale of the(heretofore winning) Orcs etc. and leads to eventual victory for the good guys. But they're all sortsa beat up.

I still don't think the scale of this is anything great. Dale was burned to the ground only 30-40 year before, plus the casualties from fighting over the lonely mountain, and Eredor was sparsley populated. We are really talking about two small towns.

No, he did not. Tolkien repeatedly makes the point that Sauron didn't (couldn't?) imagine the idea of trying to destroy the ring. He believed that the ring would probably go to Minas Tirith and Aragorn or some other would claim it and attempt to use it against him. He only figured it out when Frodo placed the ring on his finger inside of Mt. Doom and claimed it as his own.

He also makes the point that the ring corrupts, and until that person learns to use its power you are pretty much Sauron's pawn. If anything Sauron was probably hoping someone would try and use the ring because 1.) then he would know exactly where it was and 2.) it is really impossible to imagine someone, including Gandalf, figuring out its power withing the timeframe of the current war.

He didn't have full control over the Orcs in Moria. The Balrog, had it attained the ring, would've been more powerful than he (Balrogs are of the Maiar order, the same race Sauron is part of).

But he would have know that the party, and the ring, had been there.

Sure, except those places were people's homes. There were going to defend them. The only clear "mistake" would be sending forces from Rivendell to anywhere but Gondor.

Tell that to the Russians in 1941 as they scorched their own homes. Tough choices to be sure, but still the correct ones.

Elrond *does* send his two sons to help Aragorn, bringing with them the Dunedain Rangers from the North.

Maybe I am overestimating Elrond's power in the first place.

[Patroklos]

Well, I guess I consider the appendices to be a valid part of the LotR, and you don't. On this we will simply have to disagree.

I consider them a part, but anecdotal part. Nothing really happens in them, they simply tell you some fluffy stuff about what happens because of the events in the previous 95% of the books.

If you want to lay blame, aside from Morgoth/Sauron, you can feel free to heap it on Feanor and the various elf leaders who led the Noldor back to Middle Earth in defiance of the Valar.

Men would have ended up in Middle Earth fighting the Morgoth/Sauron in some fashion, or simply enslaved from the get go regardless.

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Patroklos


The forces were already deployed by then, most of them already engaged. I don't think there was much that Sauron could do at that point (withdraw I guess).

No, Aragorn's act drives Sauron to order his forces to march earlier than he had intended. They were not yet deployed.

Well then yeah, that was stupid of Sauron. But Sauron did have the forces to spare.

Agreed. Not a good general.

I still don't think the scale of this is anything great. Dale was burned to the ground only 30-40 year before, plus the casualties from fighting over the lonely mountain, and Eredor was sparsley populated. We are really talking about two small towns.

I suppose.

He also makes the point that the ring corrupts, and until that person learns to use its power you are pretty much Sauron's pawn. If anything Sauron was probably hoping someone would try and use the ring because 1.) then he would know exactly where it was and 2.) it is really impossible to imagine someone, including Gandalf, figuring out its power withing the timeframe of the current war.

The ring corrupts, but you are not Sauron's pawn while you wear the ring. He and the ringwraiths can find you easier, that's for sure.

The ring grants power according to the stature of the ring-bearer. Thus it provided very little to Frodo and Sam. It would provide more to a Boromir or Aragorn. It would provide a lot to a Galadriel. It would provide a TON to Saruman, Gandalf or the Balrog.

But yes, the reason Sauron struck immediately after Aragorn showed himself in the Palantir is because he wanted to crush Gondor *before* Aragorn had a chance to master the ring.

But he would have know that the party, and the ring, had been there.

Immediately? Or after they were already out, and in Lothlorien?

Tell that to the Russians in 1941 as they scorched their own homes. Tough choices to be sure, but still the correct ones.

The Russians didn't scorche their own homes to go fight to defend, say, France, though. They withdrew deeper within Russia, and scorching their homes was a part of defending Russia.

Maybe I am overestimating Elrond's power in the first place.

Probably. He was most important as a lore master. Rivendell wasn't all that powerful in terms of armed might.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Men would have ended up in Middle Earth fighting the Morgoth/Sauron in some fashion, or simply enslaved from the get go regardless.

Yes, but for the Elves, the men of Middle Earth would've been totally screwed... unless the Valar had intervened (as they did with the Elves).

-Arrian

[Patroklos]

No, Aragorn's act drives Sauron to order his forces to march earlier than he had intended. They were not yet deployed.

They were deployed, just not engaged. The forces that were going to attack, were already attacking, or had already attacked (Rohan) were already in their theatre of operations.

And I don't see why Aragon having the ring really mattered to Sauron. Aragorn still wouldn't have been as powerful as Sauron, and we have sceen what rings do to men.

Btw, whatever happened to the rings given to the dwarves?

Immediately? Or after they were already out, and in Lothlorien?

It doesn't matter, when he found out (and it couldn't have been long after) he would know he no longer had to look North, so I wouldn't say his attack on Dale was because he was looking for the ring there.