Enlightened Vegetarianism (and more)

[David Floyd]

Except for tha last sentence I'm afraid you didn't answer my question. You're post was still interesting. I have to point out I don't accept beleifs because they are usefull, but because they either make a lot of sense or are logical and have some proof. My question is why feel compassion?

You're answer was: Because it is good for you.

I haven't gotten much of a straight answer yet, to the really important question, so don't feel alone, here.

Blake, sorry if I missed the answer, but much of your argument seems predicated on the belief that animals deserve some of the same rights as humans. My question is, why? As most of history would contradict that belief, the onus, I would think, is on you to prove your point.

[Blake]

Originally posted by Heraclitus


Except for tha last sentence I'm afraid you didn't answer my question. You're post was still interesting. I have to point out I don't accept beleifs because they are usefull, but because they either make a lot of sense or are logical and have some proof. My question is why feel compassion?

You're answer was: Because it is good for you.


That by itself does not make a belief valid.

No, so it's not a belief. It's just something I do because it's good for me. Understand?

You're kind of asking...
Do you believe in love.
or
Do you believe in hate.
or
Do you believe in indignation.

Um... why would you ask that?

They're obviously "real", to the extent that anything can be real in the mind, and as it is destructive to feel hate, it is constructive to feel compassion. It makes for a stronger clearer mind, a mind which works better, thinks better. Belief doesn't come into it, once you have experienced that mind, the mind which works better and thinks better, you like having that mind. And so, you avoid the hate, and you embrace the compassion, so that your mind works better, thinks better, is a more blissful place to hang out.
Understand?

That is the difference between buddhism and religions. With buddhism, every step along the way, you experience more empowerment and more bliss, that is actually why you continue. This is in contrast with most religions, where you are promised:
Do X which makes you suffer now, and you will be rewarded with Y after you die making you very happy then.

Buddhism does not work like that. You get EVERYTHING, in the moment, right now. That's when you get the rewards from buddhism, in the moment. Every moment of my life I find more enjoyment, am more blissful more skillful (in everything I do) and more pleasant to be around for others, because I embrace the Way. That is my reward, I would be stupid to forsake it, I'd go back to being lethargic and dull.

Something which is critical to Buddhism is this.
You may not believe what you're told. You may not believe what anyone says, doesn't matter who they are even if they're the buddha, don't believe them just because they said it.

In Buddhism, YOU are the ultimate moral authority. If you feel something to be true, then it's true, if you don't, then it's not :P. If you feel something to be good, it is good, if you feel it to be bad, it is bad. It's very simple, there is no "Filling the disciples heads with nonsense" department in Buddhism. You do not believe yourself to be less or more of a moral authority than other people. If you feel it good to take other peoples views into account, to compromise, then you're allowed to, of course .

It makes life very easy, and as you probably know, buddhists are not a particularly violent bunch. Those who find buddhism attractive, obviously have a very good handle on feeling what is good. buddhists would claim that all people are able to feel what is good. you're not allowed to believe that of course, unless you feel that to be true. I believe it though. I've seen some pretty low cases of humanity, and what I sense, is that they do feel what they do is bad, the way they live, makes them uncomfortable with themselves. And there are examples - parable, of people who have done many very bad things and been very good at doing those bad things, have encountered buddhism, and suddenly had a change of mind, have realized, what part of their mind they really should be listening to, and they abandoned their bad ways which caused suffering. Are those stories true? Well, you don't have to believe them as truth, but I certainly know the transition in how the mind works is strong enough to have that effect...

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Blake


No, so it's not a belief. It's just something I do because it's good for me. Understand?

You're kind of asking...
Do you believe in love.
or
Do you believe in hate.
or
Do you believe in indignation.

Um... why would you ask that?

They're obviously "real", to the extent that anything can be real in the mind, and as it is destructive to feel hate, it is constructive to feel compassion. It makes for a stronger clearer mind, a mind which works better, thinks better. Belief doesn't come into it, once you have experienced that mind, the mind which works better and thinks better, you like having that mind. And so, you avoid the hate, and you embrace the compassion, so that your mind works better, thinks better, is a more blissful place to hang out.
Understand?

That is the difference between buddhism and religions. With buddhism, every step along the way, you experience more empowerment and more bliss, that is actually why you continue. This is in contrast with most religions, where you are promised:
Do X which makes you suffer now, and you will be rewarded with Y after you die making you very happy then.

So Buddhism is not a belief? If you put it like that, I suppose I can see why you call it the Way. But a quick question doesn’t Buddhism only works for you if you believe it works?

And a question whether you believe in love is a valid question, since I have no doubt than something love-like exists but I believe it to be a mere chemical reaction. It’s still a wonderful experience… but so is being high on heroin. Love is just nature's trip that’s supposed to motivate you to lay a person you usually wouldn't have the energy to lay. It increases you’re chances of survival. And so does compassion. You are merely exploiting a natural mechanism and what I’m saying to you, is that I can put chemicals in you’re brain that will make the way cease to work for you, that will make you violent and hateful. And I change someone’s mind so he receives all the benefits of Buddhism and is a mass murderer at the same time.

My third criticism is related to the fact that belief can shape reality, so why is Buddhism any better for if a man believes that God truly loves and forgives him and that he will go to heaven after he dies, then this man will try to follow the tenets of Christian fait, will try to be good, caring, compassionate and will again receive the same benefits as a Buddhist would… And that system offers a coherent world-view that is well liked by the weak minded and those who are intelligent and seek an ordered universe. Such religions can provide the same short term benefits, because you are motivated to act like that to gain the non-existent long term benefits
(They can make you just as happy as B.) .

So why should I accept Buddhism and why should I become a vegetarian?

[Harovan]

By the way, Blake, how long will it be until you abuse your powers and remove pigs, sheep, cows, fish, clam etc. from the list of food and health resources in Civ4?

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Blake


Something which is critical to Buddhism is this.
You may not believe what you're told. You may not believe what anyone says, doesn't matter who they are even if they're the buddha, don't believe them just because they said it.

In Buddhism, YOU are the ultimate moral authority. If you feel something to be true, then it's true, if you don't, then it's not :P. If you feel something to be good, it is good, if you feel it to be bad, it is bad. It's very simple, there is no "Filling the disciples heads with nonsense" department in Buddhism. You do not believe yourself to be less or more of a moral authority than other people. If you feel it good to take other peoples views into account, to compromise, then you're allowed to, of course .

It makes life very easy, and as you probably know, buddhists are not a particularly violent bunch. Those who find buddhism attractive, obviously have a very good handle on feeling what is good. buddhists would claim that all people are able to feel what is good. you're not allowed to believe that of course, unless you feel that to be true. I believe it though. I've seen some pretty low cases of humanity, and what I sense, is that they do feel what they do is bad, the way they live, makes them uncomfortable with themselves. And there are examples - parable, of people who have done many very bad things and been very good at doing those bad things, have encountered buddhism, and suddenly had a change of mind, have realized, what part of their mind they really should be listening to, and they abandoned their bad ways which caused suffering. Are those stories true? Well, you don't have to believe them as truth, but I certainly know the transition in how the mind works is strong enough to have that effect...

There are many parables of evil men mending their way after being exposed to a religion/philosophy, so I would renounce that argument, if you hadn't pointed out that it's only a side thought. I once again stress that almost any religion/strong philosophical system has similar powers and cna alter behavior.

And again manipulation could have the same effect on you're mind.

Anyway several philosophical systems propose YOU as the central moral authority. The idea of the overman is such an idea, and believe me it can alter you're behavior. I personally find it much more compatible with the positive traditions of Western society, since it challenges you to change the world around you and change you're self, it also has greater evolutionary value.

[BeBMan]

Sir Ralph

[Elok]

No, I think it's just that, once you get to modern times, all of them are replaced by "soy" and "tofu" resources. The future is scary...

[Blake]

Originally posted by Heraclitus
So Buddhism is not a belief? If you put it like that, I suppose I can see why you call it the Way. But a quick question doesn’t Buddhism only works for you if you believe it works?

That is EXACTLY why I call it The Way. Because I followed a Way of life, and after a while, I discovered it was identical to what Buddhists do.

And a question whether you believe in love is a valid question, since I have no doubt than something love-like exists but I believe it to be a mere chemical reaction. It’s still a wonderful experience… but so is being high on heroin. Love is just nature's trip that’s supposed to motivate you to lay a person you usually wouldn't have the energy to lay. It increases you’re chances of survival. And so does compassion. You are merely exploiting a natural mechanism and what I’m saying to you, is that I can put chemicals in you’re brain that will make the way cease to work for you, that will make you violent and hateful.

This is absolutely not true. If you fill my brain with weird drugs, it would just make me work harder. I would have to be more skillful.
It is true, that you could put a microchip in my brain and turn my body into a puppet not controlled by my mind. But you can certainly not put a microchip in my MIND, it is completely impossible for someone else to control my mind, regardless of what they do to my body.

The distinction may seem subtle, especially to external observers, but it's really not. Someone could put a microchip in my brain, but it would not prevent me from achieving nirvana.

And I change someone’s mind so he receives all the benefits of Buddhism and is a mass murderer at the same time.

Impossible. Buddhism gives a huge capacity for calm thought. The benefits of Buddhism are in being more kind and peaceful. You cannot be a mass murderer and kind and peaceful at the same time.

My third criticism is related to the fact that belief can shape reality, so why is Buddhism any better for if a man believes that God truly loves and forgives him and that he will go to heaven after he dies, then this man will try to follow the tenets of Christian fait, will try to be good, caring, compassionate and will again receive the same benefits as a Buddhist would…

As I said, at every step of the way with Buddhism, you gain the benefits of the way you think and act. There is no belief - it's like noticing that if you jump in the air, you fall back down. You don't have to believe in gravity for that to happen. As it is with buddhism.

And that system offers a coherent world-view that is well liked by the weak minded and those who are intelligent and seek an ordered universe. Such religions can provide the same short term benefits, because you are motivated to act like that to gain the non-existent long term benefits
(They can make you just as happy as B.) .

Hell no.

So why should I accept Buddhism and why should I become a vegetarian?

Well there's the question. If you are completely 100% happy with your life, you are content with all things you do, you are doing precisely what you want with your life, if you fear not mistakes, if you fear not success, if you fear not death, if you fear not eternity. If you feel the world is your oyster, if you feel empowered, if the word "try" does not exist in your vocabulary, then buddhism can offer you nothing, nothing!

[Asher]

Blake,

What does The Way say about boxers or briefs?

On a less serious note, why do you sound like you're trying to convince yourself here more than convincing anyone else.

[Blake]

Originally posted by Heraclitus


There are many parables of evil men mending their way after being exposed to a religion/philosophy, so I would renounce that argument, if you hadn't pointed out that it's only a side thought. I once again stress that almost any religion/strong philosophical system has similar powers and cna alter behavior.

And again manipulation could have the same effect on you're mind.

Anyway several philosophical systems propose YOU as the central moral authority. The idea of the overman is such an idea, and believe me it can alter you're behavior. I personally find it much more compatible with the positive traditions of Western society, since it challenges you to change the world around you and change you're self, it also has greater evolutionary value.

Buddhism teaches a Way - that is, a way of thinking for yourself.
Other philosophies also teach this way - a way of thinking for yourself.

There's an important saying from buddhism:
"The map is not the territory"

The territory, is The Way, you must experience it for yourself.

Buddhism, the different schools of buddhism, the other philopshies which teach similiar things, even maybe the teachings of some native american wise sifus - these are different maps.

The maps may have different details (ie contours, geographical data, etc etc), they may suggest different paths to get from A to B.

But the territory - the mind - what the maps map - is the same. You can follow any of the maps and come to experience what the mind is. You can even follow no map and just explore, paying deliberate attention. But you can't just look at the map and then claim you know the territory... so someone could study a lot of buddhist scripture and be no closer to actually being a true buddhist, they've just memorized the map :P.
I choose to follow no map. Every so often I choose to listen to or talk to Buddhists, and I also occasionally listen to and talk to people who consider themselves native american wise sifus :P.

So I see very clearly, that the map is not the territory. Because for the most part, I explore the territory - mind - without any map, I just occasionally talk to others because they might point out something important that I've missed, or didn't understand the importance of.

No school of buddhism claims to be anything more than a map - this is unlike many religions, which claim to have the ultimate truth in it's words and books. Buddhism does not, it's just a guide to finding the ultimate truth for yourself.

[Blake]

Originally posted by Asher
Blake,

What does The Way say about boxers or briefs?

Do not measure, do not judge. Boxers are good. Briefs are good. Going commando is good. Understand?

On a less serious note, why do you sound like you're trying to convince yourself here more than convincing anyone else.

That's because I'm not attacking what other people say, and that confuses you.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Blake
That's because I'm not attacking what other people say, and that confuses you.

You attack what they say before they even say it in the OP and the thread title.

[Blake]

Originally posted by Asher

You attack what they say before they even say it in the OP and the thread title.

Attacking what someones says before they even say it sounds like quite a feat, Asher. Am I omniscient or something? Do I know what they're going to say?

[Lorizael]

No, you make assumptions about what people are going to say and respond to those. It's pretty asinine.

[Blake]

Ah, or do I? Do I just speak from experience? What I've actually heard people say in the past? Where is the assumption there?