Enlightened Vegetarianism (and more)

[Heraclitus]

Wezils right the rest of us are just taking you're
anti-plant racist logic to its ultimate conclusion*!



*Or at least to its intermediate conclusion. Dr. Lector is better at logic than the rest of us...

[Blake]

Originally posted by LordShiva
So, to you, a life of forced celibacy is equivalent, quality-wise, to a life with normal sexual activity?

You appear to be saying that forced celibacy lowers quality of life. I'm glad we agree on that. All creatures, humans and other animals alike, should at least have the chance to f*ck, if they so want to.

Originally posted by Heraclitus


How do you come to this conclusion, how do you justify it? Is there a God who said so? Are there natural laws which specify so*? If neither is true then the choice to take responsibility is perfectly arbitrary and capricious.


*Many animals as a natural behavior and many human individuals, abandon their offspring or let them to fend for themselves immediately after creation.

I'm not saying what does happen. I'm saying what is better, for a society which attempts to maximize fulfillment.

If a being has the capacity to care, it should do so. Beings which have the capacity to care for their offspring, and choose not to, are almost universally considered to be bad parents / caregivers.

Originally posted by Heraclitus
Blake that may be the answer you give or I might give, but not the answer life or the universe has given. Look at any manner of life with the possible exception of some human individuals ... it will prefer to live in horrid agony than to die.

PS Why do you want to discuss theoretical answers given by beings which are incapable of giving such answers or even thinking about them or even evaluating their life?

Get over yourself. You are such a being. Just because you can cogitate in fancy ways (at least theoretically), doesn't mean you can't also think in the way which the creatures we evolved from can. This comes under various names like "Feeling" "Instinct", maybe even "Intuition".

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Blake


You are laboring under the delusion that an omnimore diet is better than a vegetarian diet. It is not.

The digestive system optimizes, it optimizes best for a pure vegetarian or pure meat diet. It's not really able to optimize for an omni diet. The meat rots in the digestive track and/or the veges are not properly digested.

Actually, you're completely wrong here. Not only does it not make sense, but there are many instances where certain benefits can only be found in meat. Since this is the basis of your entire argument. . .well. . .:toiletflushingsmilie:.

[Blake]

Originally posted by DaShi
there are many instances where certain benefits can only be found in meat.

This is something I've not heard of. Enlighten me?

[Blake]

Originally posted by Heraclitus
Look at any manner of life with the possible exception of some human individuals ... it will prefer to live in horrid agony than to die.

Think about this one.

Imagine someone takes you, as a child, and sticks you in a box. For the rest of your time alive you are maltreated and abused, occasionally fed. In time it becomes clear you'll never be freed until you are killed.

Would you hate the fact that your body keeps demanding to be fed? That even with much resolve to not eat, to starve yourself to death, you eventually grab the food which is offered and stuff it in your hungering mouth?

It's an interesting fact, that humans and animals alike will often go suicidal in a cage. Oftentimes, the way to keep them alive is to not give them the means to kill themselves. For some reason, they will continue to eat, as their body demands food.

It's your body which demands to stay alive, not your mind. The most basic instincts, from the simplest creatures alive, are to feed and excrete. This is not your mind.

Do not reduce creatures which are more than feed and excrete machines, into feed and excrete machines. It is not nice.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Blake


This is something I've not heard of. Enlighten me?

That's exactly the problem. You've based an entire belief system on something that you're not familiar with. What's worse is that you want people to follow you.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Blake


Think about this one.

Imagine someone takes you, as a child, and sticks you in a box. For the rest of your time alive you are maltreated and abused, occasionally fed. In time it becomes clear you'll never be freed until you are killed.

Would you hate the fact that your body keeps demanding to be fed? That even with much resolve to not eat, to starve yourself to death, you eventually grab the food which is offered and stuff it in your hungering mouth?

It's an interesting fact, that humans and animals alike will often go suicidal in a cage. Oftentimes, the way to keep them alive is to not give them the means to kill themselves. For some reason, they will continue to eat, as their body demands food.

It's your body which demands to stay alive, not your mind. The most basic instincts, from the simplest creatures alive, are to feed and excrete. This is not your mind.

Do not reduce creatures which are more than feed and excrete machines, into feed and excrete machines. It is not nice.

Wow! You're still doing it! What facts?! Admit that you're just making this stuff up or show some sources.

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Blake


This is something I've not heard of. Enlighten me?

Srsly?

[Wezil]

I shall assist Blake in finding the true Way and recovering from this misunderstanding of animals.

The intrinisic nature of cattle:

[onodera]

Originally posted by Elok
There'd be a lot more money to save the pandas if we found a way to cook 'em so they tasted nice. It's not like they're good for anything else, after all. They have digestive systems similar to ours, can digest just about anything, so of course they insist on eating $#@! bamboo. They don't have quadruple stomachs like cattle or other grazing animals, so they lose almost as much energy digesting the crap as they gain from it. That's why they eat like a bajillion times their own weight in bamboo every day even though they mostly just sit around looking fat and cute. It's also why they give birth prematurely, they can't afford to hold on to their young any longer. Plus they need the panda equivalent of a college education to successfully mate, which puts them several steps below white lab mice on the evolutionary fitness ladder. Eat the pandas, I say! Or, if they're not tasty, raise them for pelts!

Pandas

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Blake

Get over yourself. You are such a being. Just because you can cogitate in fancy ways (at least theoretically), doesn't mean you can't also think in the way which the creatures we evolved from can. This comes under various names like "Feeling" "Instinct", maybe even "Intuition".

I am over myself I am in fact beyond myself, hence the transcendent icon…


Anyway my first reaction to what you wrote was off course I can think like animals think and if I do so then I’m in the mood for a good juicy stake...



You should be appealing to functions unique to self-aware high level intelligence, since they are the ones that bring about the change of behavior contrary to instinct or intuition. I do concede that emotions of compassion could also result in the switch to vegetarianism without the aid of reason, but such an individual is limited.

BTW I’m slightly curios as to why exactly Buddhism sees compassion as valid. I mean what do I care for you’re pain, suffering or even agony. Like the good chairman says it is merely information.

PS I'm not speceist per se, since I do believe it is wrong to eat creatures that are self-aware or very intelligent like whales or chimps...

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Blake


Think about this one.

Imagine someone takes you, as a child, and sticks you in a box. For the rest of your time alive you are maltreated and abused, occasionally fed. In time it becomes clear you'll never be freed until you are killed.

Would you hate the fact that your body keeps demanding to be fed? That even with much resolve to not eat, to starve yourself to death, you eventually grab the food which is offered and stuff it in your hungering mouth?

You see some humans are capable of starving themselves to death.

And another thing you the average animal will never realize what you said! A human yes, a child too heck even a smart chimp might. But the average domesticated animal will be oblivious! It will never know a life different from the one it has and dosent have the imagination required to dream up another one, like the child in you’re analogy. (Since the child can think and come to conclusions…at least when its old enough and if the abuse hasn’t caused too much brain damage)


And animals that display suicidal behavior? Please, you should say animals that have very strong instincts or animals which have been captured in the wild and have difficulty adapting… In both cases AI glitches. BTW Animals are for all intents and purpose multiplying, eating excreting machines and so are you and so am I. Get over that!

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Blake
It is not nice.

If its true. Anyway the difference between you and I is just the amount of complexity we demand to see from life forms.

You say plants; I say plants and stupid animals. Think about that. I’ll take the most extreme animal case: it sucks just as much to be a maggot or a parasite as id does to be a plant.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by onodera

Pandas

True, they remind me of those godless killing machines that roam North America.

[onodera]

Originally posted by Heraclitus
True, they remind me of those godless killing machines that roam North America.

Pandas remind you of cars? You must have a Fiat Panda.