Enlightened Vegetarianism (and more)

[DaShi]

What did you cut off to identify your self?

[Blake]

Five pounds of flax.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Thoth
Blake: Another fun exercise to give people is to ask them to find where their mind stops and their body begins. Focus your attention inwards, and lift one arm. As you do so, focus on finding the line between the physical flesh of your arm and the mind that is directing the muscles.

I think it's fair to say that the bit that directs the muscles is the neuron-dense thingy located in the skull.

[Thoth]

Blake:

Cort: Try the exercise. The results are.....interesting.

[Heraclitus]

A long and interesting response Blake, I will try to get a good look at most of the stuff you recommended. I will also try to meditate as much as I can on the subject. It would be unfair to comment before this is done. Thank you very much, for this interesting line of thought and you're exaustive description of it.

Originally posted by Blake

PERCEPTION occurs in the brain. That which makes sense of perception, is the mind. The mind is a process, not a thing. It's obviously helpful to have a brain for the process to run on, but the brain is not the mind.

I'll give you a useful exercise. Find I. Find the Self. Find where that thing which says "I am me" actually resides, what it actually is.

The mind is indeed a Process, on that you are right but as any process it requires hardware a suitable shell if you will... I claim that my mind resides in the brain, since it can cut off any other part of my body without changing the way my mind functions (with the possible exception of several important glands ) The brain IS the hardware which runs the software, there can be no mind without the brain or some suitable replacement. And if you can control the hardware you can rewrite the software. The mind is ultimately defined by input, existing software and on the hardware on which it runs.

BTW The info you found on beauty while you were meditating would be very useful for the polytubbies that surround you (I mean have you seen some of the pics? ). Does universal compassion extend to poly? If so please start a thread.



PS I know more than you, since I know that I do not know anything, while you do not even know that.

And I claim it is possible to know something about the world just as much as it is possible to know something of the mind. They are linked in this respect. Since what evidence can you give that you truly comprehend you’re self? There are people who have spent their lives trying to achieve this.

[Heraclitus]

DP

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Blake


Well there's the question. If you are completely 100% happy with your life, you are content with all things you do, you are doing precisely what you want with your life, if you fear not mistakes, if you fear not success, if you fear not death, if you fear not eternity. If you feel the world is your oyster, if you feel empowered, if the word "try" does not exist in your vocabulary, then buddhism can offer you nothing, nothing!

I'm glad you concede. Buddhism has nothing to offer me.

But seriously, those are impossibly high standards. And if you say that Buddhism meets them, I will call you a liar. This is because I also claim that the goal is unreachable in the same fashion it is impossible to reach a temperature of 0 K or to reach the speed of light. That doesn't mean you can’t get very close. It just means that greater and greater effort is required to make smaller and smaller gains.

Perhaps I am mistaken about those standards being impossibly high, since I am not that close to the theoretical limit I predicted, so perhaps I am wrong, perhaps they are achievable.In that case Buddhism may be a great efficient path, but there are other paths that lead to the same result.


I challenge you to study the concept of the overman, meditate on it and try to see things from my perspective. And try not forget that I am much younger than you. Is it not possible that I have simply not had enough time for my philosophy to yield the results you speak of? In fact I have seen sustained substantial progress in the last two years ever since my defeat of nihilism.




I hope the line of thought we present each other will result in greater understanding.

[Heraclitus]

DP

[DaShi]

Don't give up on nihilism! The world is an empty and meaningless place! It needs you to not believe in it!

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by DaShi
Don't give up on nihilism! The world is an empty and meaningless place! It needs you to not believe in it!

Don’t worry my system of belief is cyclical; I think I’ll be in my nihilist phase in about one week…

[Cort Haus]

The Universe is Chaos. Hail Eris! All Hail Discordia!!

[Lorizael]

Given how well this thread has been received, I think it's time I unleashed my grand manifesto on Apolyton. Hm? What do you all think?

[Heraclitus]

Why not? (This should be entertaining…)

[Blake]

Originally posted by Heraclitus
A long and interesting response Blake, I will try to get a good look at most of the stuff you recommended. I will also try to meditate as much as I can on the subject. It would be unfair to comment before this is done. Thank you very much, for this interesting line of thought and you're exaustive description of it.

You're welcome.

The mind is indeed a Process, on that you are right but as any process it requires hardware a suitable shell if you will... I claim that my mind resides in the brain, since it can cut off any other part of my body without changing the way my mind functions (with the possible exception of several important glands ) The brain IS the hardware which runs the software, there can be no mind without the brain or some suitable replacement. And if you can control the hardware you can rewrite the software. The mind is ultimately defined by input, existing software and on the hardware on which it runs.

By my definition, a mind is something which can stop.

If something can stop itself, then start again, without external stimuli, it is a mind.

Using the burning Buddhist example, the fire is unable to make the mind un-stop. It has stopped.

Imagine a skilled monk stops his mind. And then scientists attach some electrodes to his brain and try to restart it. Maybe they manage to make the monk move again. But ah, is it the same mind?

Continuity of mind is always an illusion.

BTW The info you found on beauty while you were meditating would be very useful for the polytubbies that surround you (I mean have you seen some of the pics? ). Does universal compassion extend to poly? If so please start a thread.

It only extends to those who would rather not suffer, than suffer. Those who would rather suffer, are too much work. Compassionate effort better made elsewhere, yes?

PS I know more than you, since I know that I do not know anything, while you do not even know that.

And I claim it is possible to know something about the world just as much as it is possible to know something of the mind. They are linked in this respect. Since what evidence can you give that you truly comprehend you’re self? There are people who have spent their lives trying to achieve this.

Here's an explanation of what "knowing" is.

I believe I am typing on a computer keyboard, right now

This is true, it is something I know. Parse carefully.

I cannot claim to know what a computer truly is, whether it's a real computer or whether it's a simulated computer on a larger computer like the matrix.
I cannot claim to know what the self truly is. The truth of the self is that it's undefined.

However it is true that my image of self-body is typing on my image of keyboard.

That process which occurs in the mind is knowable to the mind, not provable to others since others do not occur in the mind but knowable to the mind.

That is where the knowable is found, not in the world, but in the mind. Buddhist have a cautious relationship with the world, they have a close relationship with the mind. Because in the mind we have knowledge and perfection and in the world we have assumption and imperfection, in the world, we strive to do our best. In the mind, we strive for perfection and purity.

This is a part of the Truth .

But seriously, those are impossibly high standards. And if you say that Buddhism meets them, I will call you a liar.

Liar am I? I say Buddhism offers them, you do not have to take that offer. You might be better off not, since if you are pursuing something too desperately, clinging, you will not achieve it. The power of Buddhism, is from letting go, not from endlessly wanting. Let go of everything, and you will have those things, you will not ever have those things, while you want them.

This is because I also claim that the goal is unreachable in the same fashion it is impossible to reach a temperature of 0 K or to reach the speed of light. That doesn't mean you can’t get very close. It just means that greater and greater effort is required to make smaller and smaller gains.

Buddism = Middle Way.
Middle Way = Not Extreme.

Absolute Zero, Speed of Light = Extreme.

Do not pursue those things as goals, that would lead to unsatisfaction, as you say, making ever increasing effort for ever diminishing returns. Middle Way means; do not pursue such things which cannot be obtained. That is desperate clinging, it leads to suffering it does.

( )

I challenge you to study the concept of the overman, meditate on it and try to see things from my perspective. And try not forget that I am much younger than you. Is it not possible that I have simply not had enough time for my philosophy to yield the results you speak of? In fact I have seen sustained substantial progress in the last two years ever since my defeat of nihilism.

I hope the line of thought we present each other will result in greater understanding.

I am not familiar with overman, you should explain your philosophy to me.

[Blake]

The Fourteen Unanswerable Questions (of Buddhism) is an interesting topic, philosophically.

To be a good buddhist, you must be able to be comfortable with the concept of "genuinely undefined", it's very quantum theoryish in a way.
Some things appear true, but only because they are measured - like you measure a thing, and claim to have found something to be true, but in fact, you've only made a measurement.

Measuring and judging, these are things to be avoided. The skillful measure not and judge not.


My first real insight into buddhism came from measuring and mental imagery.

To be specific.
I was musing on something Ajhan said, that people tend to say when speaking of someone they have fallen in love with "I love how she makes me feel"
That, being a very deep and profound thing.
Not "I love them". But "I love how they make me feel"

In other words, in love with the feeling, not in love with them.

I extended this concept to beyond beloved people. I was reading about whaling at the time and that's when the insight hit.

People love how whales make them feel. Their power and majesty, that they are kind and gentle giants. Intelligent. And that, is why many people don't like whaling. It would be a horrible shame to not have those creatures in the ocean, to not have that feeling...
And the deep insight was; I did not love even a single whale. No, I only loved a "whale image" in my mind. I was not loving anything, only loving empty images in my mind, withdrawn from the world and detached.
By creating this "Whale image", I needed not love a whale. "I love whales", what whale?

That I realized, was universal compassion, not falling in love with those empty images.

And I also realized I was guilty of, measuring. Whale image induced good feeling, they were powerful and majestic. Cow image, rather more blah. But cow, but whale, but person, equally individuals, equally with feelings, equally capable of being kind, equally capable of being majestic.

I realized without doubt, that I must be willing to eat whale, that I must be willing to eat person, if I were to be willing to eat cow. That to condone slaughter of cow, I must also condone slaughter of whale. Of kind creatures with feelings.

I realized, that real love, love towards individuals, was much more powerful than fake love, towards images. Love towards steak image - what a lame thing.

And as I tried to direct love to every sentient being in existence - no longer hiding individual behind image, I felt such tremendous energy. It's like the feeling of being in love with another person, that empowerment to do good for them, but multiplied a millionfold.

And from that moment on, I strive to cause less harm, rather than more harm, to let as many possible of those individuals to live as I would want to live if I were them, for that is the ultimate loving expression, to not control them.
The saying "If you love something, set it free", is stupid, because you should never control anything you love.

I also link to "The parable of the arrow", for why one should practise, before having all their philosophical questions answered.
I started practise, long before I knew everything, it is through practise, that I learn more, gain more joy, more happiness.

I linked to that version of the arrow in particular, because of the commentary under it:

Only upon actually experiencing the true dharma and attaining great enlightenment does one get the flavor of the Absolute Truth and is then somehow let others taste it a little bit too.

Which matches precisely with my experience. Kind of a "yikes" moment to actually taste the flavor. It's like a big iceberg of Truth, just waiting to be melted to fill the tranquil pond of the blissful mind. Metaphors are fun.