Chinese sub plays Marco Polo with US Navy battle fleet... and wins.

[Patroklos]

How many single computer viruses/gaseaous clouds/holodeck malfunctions took out the Enterprise?

[Whoha]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Predicting an annual event is easy but predicting a war time location is very hard thus this isn't something to be to worried about.

Not if they intend to start it.

[Patroklos]

Not if they intend to start it.

Yes, but there isn't much we can do about that. Unless we go around on a war footing all the time, something that our equipment couldn't keep up with and most of our personel wouldn't survive we are going to be vulnerable to the odd completely unexpected suprise attack.

But in the case of a war with China, losing a single carrier to an unannounced and unprovoked attack might actually save us casualties in the end (the world response would be different than say if we attacked them, or if they attacked us while tensions were hightened for whatever reason),

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Patroklos

But in the case of a war with China, losing a single carrier to an unannounced and unprovoked attack might actually save us casualties in the end (the world response would be different than say if we attacked them, or if they attacked us while tensions were hightened for whatever reason),

Roosevelt on the last time US naval forces were attacked in the Pacific:

Always will we remember the
character of the onslaught against us. No matter how
long it may take us to overcome this premeditated
invasion, the American people in their righteous
might will win through to absolute victory.

Lots of power words there. Americans fight a good fight when we start crap, but God help our enemies if they do.

[Vanguard]

Originally posted by Patroklos


1. SLQ-32

If you don't detect the missiles then you are not going to launch any chaff.

2. Stark did not have phased radar or Aegis.

3. Stark was hit by a missile from a country we were not at war with, why is this so hard for people to understand?

A beam from a phased array has the same difficulty detecting sea-skimmers as a beam from a horn.

Advanced computer controls may increase detection probability. But fundamentally a sea skimming missile has a very small radar cross-section which has to be detected in the worst possible radar environment. I don't see any reason to think that any radar in service provides anything like adequate detection or tracking capability to provide defense against dozens or hundreds of attacks.

Not being at war with Iraq had little to do with it. Stark knew it was in a dangerous area, was operating appropriately and still did not even detect either approaching Exocet.

An absolutely ridiculous statment on your part. What is the best way to shoot down airplanes? WITH OTHER AIRPLANES! Note that if carriers are so vulnerable to land based aircraft what makes you think a cruiser or destroyer would fair any better? I know the answers to that (and have said them at nauseum on this board), but I will wait for you to figure out the flaws in you own comment before saying it again.

Who said I thought they would fare any better? The fact that I think that carriers are dead meat does mean I'm suggesting we should send frigates off the Chinese coast to shoot at coastal forts.

Distant blockade is the strategy to use.

As for China's airfoce, wiki it, it would be toast. Not that China would evern be able to engage just ONE carrier, or just naval aviation for that matter. Unless they suprise attack us they will meet the full force of the USN and USAF together, not piecmeal. And the simple reality is that if someone decides to suprise attack us, you could take out any singlar warship even if it had sheilds and photon torpedos.

It would take the entire USAF and a long campaign to defeat the Chinese air-force. Even if this occurred, it would still be exceedingly dangerous for carriers to operate within range of China.

So what good are the carriers? If we have the entire USAF there, then the carriers are basically superfluous. There is nothing they can do that Strike Eagles can't do better. Worse, there is no particularly good reason to think that they could even defend themselves against the remnants of Chinese missile power.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Vanguard

It would take the entire USAF and a long campaign to defeat the Chinese air-force.

No it wouldn't. 5 days and the Chinese AF is no longer an effective force.

[Vanguard]

Originally posted by PLATO


No it wouldn't. 5 days and the Chinese AF is no longer an effective force.

Maybe in Tom Clancy Land it would last 5 days. On Planet Earth it would take months or years.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Vanguard



Maybe in Tom Clancy Land it would last 5 days. On Planet Earth it would take months or years.

Tom Clancy Land.

I liked that.

I believe you are not an astute historian of air control operations on a modern battlefield. Nor are you well versed in the operational capabilities of the airframes that would be involved.

I'll stand by my estimate...and also hope we never know the answer.

[Patroklos]

If you don't detect the missiles then you are not going to launch any chaff.

I you not familiar with that piece of equiment (nor should you be). The SLQ-32 detects the seeking signal from incoming missiles and based on what it detects tell you exactly what the threat is, so in effect it can see the enemy missle as soon as the enemy missle can see it.

A beam from a phased array has the same difficulty detecting sea-skimmers as a beam from a horn.

Advanced computer controls may increase detection probability. But fundamentally a sea skimming missile has a very small radar cross-section which has to be detected in the worst possible radar environment.

No, it doesn't. A phased array is active 360 continuously, so the missile doens't get the exploit the 10-15 odd second delay of a conventional radar sweep.

And they see missiles just fine, I am curious what attribute you think these missiles have that render then invisible. Aegis can see a softball sized target at a range of 256nm.

And why exactly do you think it is the "worst possible radar enviroment?" Nice, flat, obstuctionless environs for hundreds of miles, there is no better radar enviroment.

I don't see any reason to think that any radar in service provides anything like adequate detection or tracking capability to provide defense against dozens or hundreds of attacks.

I realize you can't see a way, thats why people like me are here to tell you how it is. Why would we be dealing with dozens or hundreds of attacks in the first place?

Not being at war with Iraq had little to do with it. Stark knew it was in a dangerous area, was operating appropriately and still did not even detect either approaching Exocet.

"Aboard the USS Stark, a Perry-class frigate on duty in the gulf, radar operators picked up the Mirage when it was some 200 miles away [so if it was from an agressor country it would have been shot down]; it was flying at 5,000 feet and traveling at 550 mph. Captain Glenn Brindel, 43, commander of the Stark, was not particularly alarmed. He knew it was fairly common for Iraqi and Iranian warplanes to fly over the gulf [because we were not at war with either]. "

"In keeping with standard procedure, Captain Brindel ordered a radio message flashed at 10:09 PM: "Unknown aircraft, this is U.S. Navy warship on your 078 for twelve miles. [Do you think we would be radioing our position to known agressors? Note, do we let know agressors move through 75nm of SM2 range in a shooting war?] Request you identify yourself." There was no reply. A second request was sent. Still no answer. Brindel noted that the aircraft's pilot had not locked his targeting radar on the Stark, so he expected it to veer away."

http://eightiesclub.tripod.com/id344.htm

Stark is a perfect example of what I am talking about. Suprise will get 9 times out of 10 you no matter who you are.

It should also be noted that an Oliver Hazard Perry class frigate is not an anti-air ship. It is a jack of all trades, master of none. The ones in service now don't even have their "one armed bandit" launchers anymore.

Who said I thought they would fair any better? The fact that I think that carriers are dead meat does mean I'm suggesting we should send frigates off the Chinese coast to shoot at coastal forts.

Did anyone suggest putting a carrier off the coast of China? Your problem, and others here, seem to be misunderstanding how a carrier should be used.

Distant blockade is the strategy to use.

And guess what the best tool for that is?

It would take the entire USAF and a long campaign to defeat the Chinese air-force. Even if this occurred, it would still be exceedingly dangerous for carriers to operate within range of China.

Please explain in detaul why this would be the case.

So what good are the carriers? If we have the entire USAF there, then the carriers are basically superfluous. There is nothing they can do that Strike Eagles can't do better.

I usually don't consider 3000 third gernertion aircraft (NOTE:3 times as many itself as China's entire armed forces) operating from uknown locations superflourus.

What exactly can a F-15E do better than a F/A-18 Super Hornet? How may F-15Es do we have? Where do they operate out of?

Worse, there is no particularly good reason to think that they could even defend themselves against the remnants of Chinese missile power

First you have to explain why they are vulnerable to "Chinese missle power" ( ) in the first place. Or better yet why the USAF would not be more vulnerable.

On Planet Earth it would take months or years.

Humor me, what good reason do you have for thinking this?

[Kuciwalker]

And they see missiles just fine, I am curious what attribute you think these missiles have that render then invisible. Aegis can see a softball sized target at 256nm.

Wait, which is it, softball sized or 256nm?

[MRT144]

Originally posted by Patroklos
How many single computer viruses/gaseaous clouds/holodeck malfunctions took out the Enterprise?

this seems like a good addition to make towards the TNG drinking game.

[Patroklos]

Wait, which is it, softball sized or 256nm?

"At," not "of."

[BeBMan]

I think we need a "What's the best conventional sub" thread. I heard the Swedes (wrongly!) call one of their models "the best", ignoring that the best is without doubt the Type U 212 A - FACT!

*waves flag*

[Patroklos]

I would definetly say that on the smaller/desiel side the 212 is the best.

I think the Swedish one is more cost effective.

[Vanguard]

Originally posted by Patroklos


I you not familiar with that piece of equiment (nor should you be). The SLQ-32 detects the seeking signal from incoming missiles and based on what it detects tell you exactly what the threat is, so in effect it can see the enemy missle as soon as the enemy missle can see it.

But what the SLQ-32 is used for is to control counter-measures, such as chaff or jamming. The SLQ-32 may very well figure out what type of missile is going to hit the ship in the next two seconds. But that is useless unless it can do something about it.

No, it doesn't. A phased array is active 360 continuously, so the missile doens't get the exploit the 10-15 odd second delay of a conventional radar sweep.

No, it isn't. A phased array radar creates a radar beam from an array of discrete antenae. It is not "active 360 continuously". The computer still has to sweep the beam across the search area. The beam is either pointing at the target or it isn't, just like a traditional targeting antenna.

And they see missiles just fine, I am curious what attribute you think these missiles have that render then invisible. Aegis can see a softball sized target at a range of 256nm.

First of all, no it can't. Second of all, do you know how many softball sized targets there are within 256 nm of a cruiser at sea-skimming heights? Maybe 1 trillion. All those wave tops. Would you like to view the targets sequentially?

And why exactly do you think it is the "worst possible radar enviroment?" Nice, flat, obstuctionless environs for hundreds of miles, there is no better radar enviroment.

Ever, uh, been to the ocean? They have these things called "waves".

But sea-skimming (or Nap of Earth) are difficult to detect even on a smooth surface, because you can't simply rotate a wide beam and expect a return from anything in range. The earth itself blocks the radar unless it is pointed not only in the right direction, but also at the perfect azimuth.

It should also be noted that an Oliver Hazard Perry class frigate is not an anti-air ship. It is a jack of all trades, master of none. The ones in service now don't even have their "one armed bandit" launchers anymore.

The ship was operating in a war zone, knew that missile attacks were being made and that there was an Iraqi aircraft nearby. They were equipped with US anti-aircraft defenses designed to protect the ship from missiles. Despite this, they and an AWACS plane, failed to detect the launch of either missile or their target.

Did anyone suggest putting a carrier off the coast of China? Your problem, and others here, seem to be misunderstanding how a carrier should be used.

And guess what the best tool for that is?

Bunch of cheap frigates I guess.

Please explain in detail why this would be the case.


Humor me, what good reason do you have for thinking this?

First, why don't you explain why you think we are going to defeat China's air force in 5 days? Afaik the USAF doesn't think that.