Christian Guy Totally Owns Mormons

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by Seeker
No, JENOVAs Witnesses. I don't know if their 'theology' is depressing or not...

It's been so long since I played FF7 (at least 10 years) that I don't remember who or what Jenova is. The only things that I remember from it are Sephiroth and those three Shinra guys that you have to fight multiple times.

[Wycoff]

dp

[Seeker]

JENOVA was Sephiroth's 'mother' and the big meteor thingy at the end. Kinda. Or something like that. As good a Goddess as any, I suppose.

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by Wycoff
Thank you for your answers, Alex & friends. I have more questions, though:

Sure thing.

Originally posted by Wycoff
1. How does Joseph Smith fit into this equation? Is he another begotten son of God (like Jesus), a prophet like those in the Old Testament, a Moses / Abraham elder figure, just a guy who God seems to love more than the rest of us for no particular reason (i.e. King David), a wild card like John the Baptist, or is he something else entirely? Does our prospective Godhood depend on any act of Joseph Smith?

Joseph Smith is a Prophet of God.
To explain why he is significant to Mormons, I should probably start from the very beginning so as to make sense and to not generate several ancillary questions.

People in the Judeo-Christian tradition believe that God used to talk to men on earth, prophets like Abraham and Moses. Latter-day Saints believe that God still talks to men on earth, or rather, that He does again.

When Jesus Christ was on the earth, He established an organizational system for maintaining and spreading the Kingdom of God on earth, which became known as His "Church." The Church of Jesus Christ was led by His chosen Twelve Apostles, who had His authority, the same authority that had been given to prophets like Moses to act in the name of God and to lead and direct the faithful.

However, anyone familiar with Christian legend or Roman history will know stories of how the Apostles and other early Christians were martyred. Latter-day Saints believe that the deaths of the Apostles ushered in a period known as the Great Apostasy, a falling away from truth. The true authority (also known as priesthood) was lost from the earth, and there began to be atrocities committed in the name of Christ such as the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, etc.

Later on, the Reformation took place, where men like Martin Luther challenged the corruption of Christianity by vices such as nepotism, simony, and of course, the selling of indulgences to name just a few. Latter-day Saints believe that the Reformation prepared the way for what we call the Restoration of the Gospel.

The necessary thing for a Restoration would be for God to call a man with the same prophetic and apostolic authority that was held anciently. Mormons believe that Joseph Smith was that prophet.

In 1820, Joseph Smith had his first revelatory experience prior to his call as a prophet. As a young 14-year old, he wondered about which of the many conflicting sects was the true one, and went out into the woods to pray about it. Joseph Smith's account is as follows:

"I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me. ... When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!" (Joseph Smith-History 1: 16, 17)

These two Personages were God the Father and Jesus Christ, and they revealed to Joseph Smith that their Church, with the organizational system and authority it had held anciently, was no longer on the earth. Latter-day Saints believe that through this and other experiences, Joseph Smith was called to be a Prophet of God, with the same authority as the prophets and apostles of old, like Samuel or Jeremiah.

In 1829, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery received this authority at the hands of those who held it anciently. As a resurrected being, John the Baptist appeared and restored the priestly authority of the Levite House of Aaron, what Mormons call the Aaronic Priesthood. Anciently, as a descendant of Aaron and a priest, John the Baptist held this authority. Now it was conferred upon Joseph Smith.

Later, Peter, James and John appeared to him and conferred their apostolic authority upon Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, the same authority they had been given by Christ anciently, known as the Melchizedek Priesthood. (Hebrews Chapter 5 discusses these two orders of priesthood, if you need a reference.)

Oliver Cowdery was Joseph Smith's scribe and friend. The two of them, now with priesthood authority, officially organized what would be known as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in 1830. Thus, Mormons believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet and that God restored the true authority and church through him.

So that's the Joseph Smith story and how he fits in to the picture. He is not another Christ figure, nor do we worship him, and our exaltation does not rest upon him except in as much as the proper authority, saving ordinances, and gospel truth were restored through him as God's instrument.

My, but that was a long answer, eh? But a big question merits a bigger answer. I hope I didn't confuse you with all of that.

Originally posted by Wycoff
2. Do Mormons really believe that there will be a heaven on Earth set up in Independence, MO?

Not exactly. I had better explain the principle of "Zion." Mormons believe Zion to be both a literal place or places and a state of being. As a state of being, Zion means being pure in heart, and as such Latter-day Saints hope to be living in a Zion existence wherever we are. Since Mormons seek to emulate Jesus Christ, I suppose you could say that we are trying to emulate heaven here on earth, but it is an act of emulation rather than replication.

Regarding Zion as a literal place, Mormons believe that the prophesied New Jerusalem will be built centered at Independence, MO during (or immediately prior to) the Second Coming of Jesus Christ and his Millennial Reign.

So in regards to Zion being a city full of those who are pure in heart and where Jesus Christ dwells personally in their midst, I suppose you could say that it is a sort of heaven on earth, from a certain point of view.

Originally posted by Wycoff
3. Why is alcohol regarded as evil? I can understand warning against alcoholism, but drinking a few beers (or glasses of wine or scotch, etc) doesn't inevitably (or even probably) lead to alcoholism.

Well, you could compare it to the ancient Hebrews who did not eat pork or any other food declared to be "unclean." It was as much to set them apart as a unique people as it was for any health reason.

As for alcohol specifically today, I'll quote from a revelation given to Joseph Smith in 1833 called the "Word of Wisdom." Jesus Christ is the one speaking.

"Behold, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you: In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation— That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him. And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make." (Doctrine and Covenants 89: 4-6)

So alcohol itself is not viewed is evil. In mortality, Jesus Christ is known to have had wine on several occasions. The evil is "in the hearts of conspiring men" (read alcohol and tobacco companies, etc.) who seek to gain control over people through substance abuse.

So the Word of Wisdom prohibits the consumption of alcoholic beverages and the use of tobacco, so you won't see any faithful Mormon doing either of these.

However, the Word of Wisdom is not just a prohibitory revelation. It specifies the correct use of both alcohol and tobacco. Alcohol is "not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies," i.e. as a disinfectant. Tobacco is "not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill." The Word of Wisdom also specifies good dietary habits, including a recommendation not to eat too much meat.

The promise given to those who keep this set of commandments is: "And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones; And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures; And shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint. And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen." (Doctrine and Covenants 89: 18-21)

I hope my lengthy answers weren't too overwhelming for you, and that they helped to answer your questions effectively.

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by Wycoff

Jehovah' s witnesses. Their missionaries tend to be much more grouchy and unfriendly than Mormons, and their theology is more depressing, IMO.

Heh, as an LDS missionary I once had one of the JWs follow my companion and me for several blocks to our apartment trying to provoke us into an argument. That was entertaining. I don't hold anything against them personally, but I would agree about them being grouchier than me.

[Berzerker]

Don't forget about the discovery of skeletons with Caucasoid features in ancient North America. Unfortunately they seem to considerably pre-date thr folks described in the book of Mormon.

Havent read it, but one of those really old skeletons comes from Spirit Cave (I think) in Utah (I think) and dates back ~9 K BC.

So alcohol itself is not viewed is evil. In mortality, Jesus Christ is known to have had wine on several occasions. The evil is "in the hearts of conspiring men" (read alcohol and tobacco companies, etc.) who seek to gain control over people through substance abuse.

Jesus not only drank wine, he supplied a bunch of wine to the guests at a wedding (cana) who were already drunk. So I cant "read alcohol and tobacco companies" as being evil for providing a product people want. It aint their fault if I dont know when to slow down or stop.