Christian Guy Totally Owns Mormons

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by Berzerker
What is the word's origin and which star is it?

Though I am interested in both etymology and philology, I do not profess to be an expert in either, so I must refer you to another source.

BYU scholar Michael Rhodes theorizes thusly:

"The word most likely derives from the common Semitic root QLB, which has the basic meaning of "heart, center, middle" (Arabic qalb "heart, center"; Hebrew qereb "middle, midst", qarab "to draw near"; Egyptian m-q3b "in the midst of"). In fact, qalb forms part of the Arabic names of several of the brightest stars in the sky, including Antares, Regulus, and Canopus."

http://home.comcast.net/~michael.rhodes/JosephSmithHypocephalus.pdf

Again, since Kolob is not really an essential point of Latter-day Saint doctrine, most discussions of it are relegated to esoteric doctoral dissertations of any BYU professors and students who take a particular interest in it.

As for which particular star Kolob is, I don't think that has ever been specified. Again, since it is only mentioned cursorily in the Book of Abraham, it is not really considered pertinent information.

Your guess is as good as mine.

[Dinner]

I found this to be interesting, it's a list of ten Mormon "urban legends" or commonly believed myths as written by an ex-Mormon:

Mormons are fond of spreading "faith-promoting rumors." Members so badly want for the church to be true, in the absence of any evidence they are prone to grab on to anything that might help promote that belief. Then that rumor gets repeated and embellished to the point where most actually believe it to be true. Here are my top ten, yours may differ.

1- The Smithsonian Institute uses the Book of Mormon in its research.
This one started over a hundred years ago and just won't die. Periodically the Smithsonian Institute (and the National Geographical Society) sends notices to the church saying "please, please tell your people to stop calling us. We have never found any connection with your book and any archeology discovered in the Americas."

2- Polygamy was needed in the early church because there was an overabundance of single women who needed husbands.
Not so! A check of every census record of Illinois and Utah, from 1840 through 1900 reveals that (like all western frontier locations) men outnumbered the women by a good margin.

3- The LDS church has no paid ministry.
This in true only at the local level through the stake presidency. The top 85 or 90 leaders (General Authorities) do quite well. They receive a salary, allowances, and also are paid as board members for the vast number of church-owned corporations. In the early history of the church, Joseph had a revelation that God desired "he should not labor" and in an act of nepotism, he named his dad the "patriarch," authorizing him to charge a dollar a blessing. (today's patriarchs receive no compensation)

4- The LDS church is the fastest growing church in the world.
It's certainly fast growing, but if you are talking raw numbers, the Catholic church is probably growing fifty times as fast, simply from the birth rate alone. If you are talking percentages, the Assembly of God in Brazil went from almost zero to ten million in only four years! It took the LDS over 160 years to reach that level.

5- The reason the original LDS temple ceremony and the Masonic ritual were virtually identical was that they were both the original ceremonies of Solomon's Temple.
Completely untrue! Secret ceremonies weren't practiced in Solomon's Temple, it was open. Masonic leaders will explain that when Masonry originated in the 16th century, few people could read or write, so it designed a ritual of skits and symbolism to convey its message, as was done in Solomon's time. Within a few days after he became a Master Mason, Joseph simply copied the same ceremony for the Mormon Church.

6- The church name, "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints," is divinely inspired.
If it is, God sure fumbled around a good while before doling out a little inspiration. The original church name in 1830 was "Church of Christ." In 1834 it was changed to "Church of the Latter Day Saints." Then four years later, in 1838 it was again changed to its present name.

7- Joseph Smith made a great prophecy in 1842, the Rocky Mountain prophecy, by predicting the Mormons would come to the Rocky Mountains and become a mighty people.
Church historian Dean Jessee produced the original manuscript from History of the Church showing the authorship was in 1845, after Smith's death. Then years later, after the Saints were in Utah, someone penciled "Rocky Mountains" into the document. Jessee was chastised for revealing this historical tidbit.

8- After Joseph Smith was killed, the apostles knew Brigham Young was the successor by his "transformation" into the image of Joseph.
All the apostles were requested to keep diaries, which are now historical documents. On this Aug. 8, 1844 meeting not a single one recorded it. It didn't pop up as a folk legend until about twenty years later.

9- In the first year of the Mormon settlement in Utah, a plague of locusts (Mormon crickets) threatened to wipe out their crops. God responded with a "miracle", sending an army of seagulls to devour the insects.
This one is true -- however the miracle part is somewhat embellished. The locusts have a seven-year hibernation cycle, and unfortunately the early settlers hit it on the end of the seventh year. For mutual protection, they had made the mistake of planting all their fields together. Therefore, the locust attack was concentrated in one spot in the valley. And the seagulls, which by their fossil remains have been at the Great Salt Lake for over 2,000 years, simply enjoyed their every-seven-year feast. They still do -- only now it's spread over thousands of square miles. (2001 was a bad year, 2008 is next).

10- And for the last one, I want to collectively group thousands of "magic underwear" tales. You've got to hear some of these! When any TBM survives any accident, calamity, or near miss, the reason is always attributed to his/her wearing the holy drawers.
The reality is that safety records, medical records, and the observations of safety experts, paramedics and hospital emergency room personnel all show that Mormons have the same percentages of accidents per capita, and the same injury/death ratios as anybody else in the general population. But the imagined protection continues to make good fodder for monthly Testimony Meetings.

http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon060.htm

I have to admit that the Mormon belief I found mystifying was that native Americans were originally white people from the lost 13th tribe of Israel. Supposedly God got angry with them for rejecting Mormon teachings so he turned them all "red".

[Berzerker]

thx Alex, I didn't know Smith was so into Egyptian mysticism

Ever hear of Pahana?

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by Alexander I
Jesus Christ is the central figure of Latter-day Saint beliefs. He is both the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh and the Firstborn of God's spirit children. In mortality, He was the only perfect man. He is the Savior and Redeemer of mankind, and it is only by His Atonement (suffering and dying for men's sins, both in Gethsemane and on the cross at Calvary) that we can be saved and exalted. Thus, Latter-day Saints believe that man is saved by grace. He is our Advocate with God the Father.

We believe that we are only able to access the Atonement through obedience to the principles and ordinances of Christ's gospel. ("If ye love me, keep my commandments." -John 14:15) The principles are quite simple: Faith in Jesus Christ and Repentance of sins. The ordinances are outward symbols of inward covenants that one makes with God. Some of the principal ordinances are: Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38), Confirmation, or the Laying on of Hands for the Gift of the Holy Ghost (Acts 8:17), the Endowment (the primary Temple ordinance) (Luke 24:49). Through these principles and ordinances we show Christ that we are willing to do what He sets forth as the path to access the blessings of His Atonement.

So because we are all sinners, we are not able to become exalted except through Jesus Christ and His Atonement.

He is pivotal to God's work, providing immortality to all through His Resurrection, and salvation and exaltation to the faithful through His Atonement. Thus, again He is the central figure in Latter-day Saint religion, and indeed this is reflected in the official name of the church, "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions!

I have a few more for you. I understand that these questions relate to more esoteric points of doctrine, points that might not be well developed. I find them necessary to ask, though, because I can't understand Mormonism without having a good sense of these answers


If I understand you correctly, worshipping Jesus is necessary for us to become Gods.

1- Was Jesus actually a manifestation of God / one side of God, or was he a man?

2- If he was a man, then why is he significant to us? If the logic holds- If you a great enough man you become a god and create your own world- why is Jesus, as the perfect man of our world- still significant to our world? Wouldn't he be the creator of his own world / universe, and be God there (like our God presumably did)? Or was the Judeo-Christian God the Jesus of his own world, the advocate to his God but also great enough to become the creator of his own world?

3- Moreover, if someone else could live a perfectly life, then couldn't they become a God without Jesus? Afterall, if Jesus was just a man, wouldn't that be proof that it is possible for a man to live a perfect life without having Jesus as a special advocate?

4- If not, if you absolutely must believe in Jesus to become a God, then how did the Judeo-Christian God become God? He couldn't have believed in Jesus. Did he have his own "Jesus" and God? (the answer to this would have to be "yes" under the doctrine of eternal progression, wouldn't it?) If so, then why wouldn't we worship them instead? Why not worship whatever was at the beginning of the eternal progression rather than God and, especially Jesus, who are just creations of creations of creations of creations of...

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by Berzerker
thx Alex, I didn't know Smith was so into Egyptian mysticism

Ever hear of Pahana?

Pahana? Can't say that I have.

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by Wycoff
Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions!

I have a few more for you. I understand that these questions relate to more esoteric points of doctrine, points that might not be well developed. I find them necessary to ask, though, because I can't understand Mormonism without having a good sense of these answers.

It's my pleasure. Your latest questions are indeed a bit more esoteric, so I took the liberty of showing them to my best friend Robert. He is also a returned missionary and provides some good insights. He has consented to having his answers posted online, so I've included them with my own.

Originally posted by Wycoff
If I understand you correctly, worshipping Jesus is necessary for us to become Gods.

1- Was Jesus actually a manifestation of God / one side of God, or was he a man?

Alexander: We believe Jesus to be the Son of God. Some denominations interpret this to mean He was some aspect of God the Father incarnated as Christ. Mormons do not believe that.

Rather, we believe that Jesus Christ is the literal Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh, a separate and distinct individual who in His mortal existence had both an aspect of the divine and of His mortality.

Robert: Christ was literally the son of God the Father (a separate person) and Mary, as such He was both mortal and divine. So in short, during His mortal ministry He was more than a man.

Originally posted by Wycoff
2- If he was a man, then why is he significant to us? If the logic holds- If you a great enough man you become a god and create your own world- why is Jesus, as the perfect man of our world- still significant to our world? Wouldn't he be the creator of his own world / universe, and be God there (like our God presumably did)? Or was the Judeo-Christian God the Jesus of his own world, the advocate to his God but also great enough to become the creator of his own world?

Alexander: As the Son of God, He was both a mortal man, and yet more than a man. You could simply say He was half-divine. Here's where another principle comes in, called "Divine Investiture of Authority." God the Father invested Christ with the authority to act for Him and to carry out his divine commission, namely His Resurrection and Atonement.

However, since Jesus was in the same stage of existence as we are, He had yet to become an immortal, exalted being. Now that He is resurrected, He still serves as our Advocate with God the Father. On the Judgment Day, it is He who will judge us for our sins, since that is His place as our Redeemer. We have to go through Him to become exalted. Once His work in this stage of progression is complete, He will presumably move on to create worlds along with all those exalted through His sacrifice.

The Apostle Paul says something significant in his Epistle to the Romans about both Christ's and our roles regarding this subject:
"The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us." - Romans 8:16-18

Robert: The logic doesn't hold because it has nothing to do with how great you are. All of God's children are his offspring and have the capacity to become like him if they do as he has commanded. Christ is our elder brother, but in the same step of eternal development as we are. We, Christ included, will all be heirs of all the Father has if we follow the commandments and endure to the end. Christ is our exemplar, and he also has a unique position as the Savior of the world, but neither of those will put him ahead of anyone else who becomes an heir of all the Father has. Presumably, he will be the creator of his own world/universe just as will all those who inherit all the Father has.

Originally posted by Wycoff
3- Moreover, if someone else could live a perfectly life, then couldn't they become a God without Jesus? Afterall, if Jesus was just a man, wouldn't that be proof that it is possible for a man to live a perfect life without having Jesus as a special advocate?

Alexander: Christ was more than a man. As such, he was able to live a totally perfect mortal life. We are weak, and thus commit sins all the time. This also brings in a principle we have heretofore not addressed, namely the Fall of Adam. We don't believe that we are held accountable for original sin, but we do believe that because of Adam's Fall we are born into a fallen state of existence where it is easy for us to commit sin. Through Christ's Atonement we are redeemed from the Fall.

The mission of Jesus Christ also allows us access to a great gift:
Free Agency - God the Father gave us the gift to make decisions for ourselves here on earth. Since He would not compel us to obey Him in all things, that means it is our choice if we want to obey God's commandments or not. However, that also means that we can and will make mistakes: sins. Christ's Atonement allows us to have our sins remitted, so that they will not prevent us from returning to live with God again. That is what is commonly called Salvation (from sin). However, in order to gain salvation, we have to follow the principles and ordinances I mentioned in one of my answers from the other day.

Robert: No one can live a perfect life. It is not possible. Since it is impossible, there is no point speculating what someone would do if they did it.

While looking over these answers, my wife Anna also had some comments to make, which I've included below.

Anna: Since Jesus was literally the Son of God, he was more than mortal men are. He was able to suffer the pains of the Atonement for our sins in Gethsemane and on Calvary, which no mere mortal could have accomplished. He knew his mission more clearly than we know ours and He had a much more intimate relationship with His Father in Heaven than most of us currently have. All of these factors combine to allow Jesus to attain perfection while on this Earth. The rest of us, since we are just mortals, will succumb to temptation and will sin throughout our lives. That's why we need Jesus.

Originally posted by Wycoff
4- If not, if you absolutely must believe in Jesus to become a God, then how did the Judeo-Christian God become God? He couldn't have believed in Jesus. Did he have his own "Jesus" and God? (the answer to this would have to be "yes" under the doctrine of eternal progression, wouldn't it?) If so, then why wouldn't we worship them instead? Why not worship whatever was at the beginning of the eternal progression rather than God and, especially Jesus, who are just creations of creations of creations of creations of...

Alexander: We simply do not know the conditions of God the Father's mortal existence. I would speculate that there was a Savior figure in His mortality as well, who was invested with Their Heavenly Father's divine authority, but that has not been revealed. Some even speculate that our God was the Savior for His world, but that is completely irrelevant to us and our own salvation and exaltation.

The Atonement of Jesus Christ is absolutely necessary for the spirit children of God the Father to be saved and exalted, whether they were born on this Earth or on any others that He has or will yet create.

As for why we don't worship God the Father's God the Father etc., I like Robert's grandparents analogy (see below), that for the same reason one is raised by the parents that gave birth to him, we worship the God who fathered our Spirits and created our world and our first ancestors, Adam and Eve. However, I would say that since God's work and glory is the immortality and exaltation of His children, (and since this Godly work is the same for all who are exalted) that our very existence and potential exaltation is a fulfillment of the work and glory of countless other divine progenitors.

Of course that's just me theorizing here and not an official statement of doctrine.

Robert: I think that you are right in the first part, but as for why we don't worship farther up the eternal family tree... I don't know. I would guess it is similar to why you are closer to your parents than your grandparents, etc. You don't turn over your parental responsibilities to your parents just because they are older, wiser, or more experienced, I would say that it works the same way with God (but if I'm speculating here so I could easily be wrong).


So that's all of your questions answered to the best of our ability. I hope the multiple answers didn't overwhelm you, but since the questions were so esoteric I felt that hearing different perspectives would be useful. Let me know if you have any other questions.

[Berzerker]

Pahana? Can't say that I have.

He's the lost white brother of Hopi myth, I figured he was of interest to Mormons who believed Indians (or some Indians) had some connection to the old world

[LordShiva]

Indians

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Alexander I
I'm a Mormon.
Oh, and @ Strangelove, Lorizael, etc.:
It's Kolob.

Good Heavens!!!! That sounds even more like Kobol!!!! TV is infiltrated by Mormons. There's a certain Air Force general who needs to know about this.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by LordShiva
Indians

Well, next time get here first and name them yourselves.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Berzerker


He's the lost white brother of Hopi myth, I figured he was of interest to Mormons who believed Indians (or some Indians) had some connection to the old world

Don't forget about the discovery of skeletons with Caucasoid features in ancient North America. Unfortunately they seem to considerably pre-date thr folks described in the book of Mormon.

[Seeker]

(ignores everything else)

I just wanted to point out that there is a group of Final Fantasy VII Cosplayers called 'Jenovah's Witnesses'.

I don't know which group I'd least like to have visit me...

[Wycoff]

Thank you for your answers, Alex & friends. I have more questions, though:

1. How does Joseph Smith fit into this equation? Is he another begotten son of God (like Jesus), a prophet like those in the Old Testament, a Moses / Abraham elder figure, just a guy who God seems to love more than the rest of us for no particular reason (i.e. King David), a wild card like John the Baptist, or is he something else entirely? Does our prospective Godhood depend on any act of Joseph Smith?

2. Do Mormons really believe that there will be a heaven on Earth set up in Independance, MO?

3. Why is alcohol regarded as evil? I can understand warning against alcoholism, but drinking a few beers (or glasses of wine or scotch, etc) doesn't inevitably (or even probably) lead to alcoholism.

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by Seeker
(ignores everything else)

I just wanted to point out that there is a group of Final Fantasy VII Cosplayers called 'Jenovah's Witnesses'.

I don't know which group I'd least like to have visit me...

Jehovah' s witnesses. Their missionaries tend to be much more grouchy and unfriendly than Mormons, and their theology is more depressing, IMO.

[Seeker]

No, JENOVAs Witnesses. I don't know if their 'theology' is depressing or not...