Christian Guy Totally Owns Mormons

[OneFootInTheGrave]

ah, there are many stories, and I am sure there is an ending for the liking of anyone, be it protestant, mormon, atheist, muslim you name it...


I am sure there are eventual conversion stories, from all sides to the other, but we just don't have them posted here ... (one of he was "maybe scared from discussing further" reached us though)


all in all it's an anecdote, and a no biggie..

[Nikolai]

Just what I've said already. It was never meant as anything else, but someone didn't get that.

[Aeson]

Originally posted by Nikolai
You, on the other hand, ignores that he said he wanted to come back.

There's a difference between "he said he'd come back", and "he said he wanted to come back but the Church wouldn't let him". Please make up your mind about what the reality is you're trying to create.

If he wanted to come back, he could have. These are missionaries... not slaves. Actions speak louder than words. (Especially words from a friend of a friend, verified by some undisclosed means.)

Just what I've said already. It was never meant as anything else, but someone didn't get that.

You were propagating a claim about the LDS Church that: "the normal thing the mormon church does when one of their believers get this kind of trouble: He gets sent away to another place and is forbidden to come back to the person who confused him."

Having been one of the people who gets "confused"... and being someone who has "confused" quite a few others... I can safely say that that is not normal proceedure. In fact, the more you are willing to discuss scripture with Mormons (at least civily) the more they're likely to bug you. I've read the manuals. I've experienced it first hand.

Some of the details are just fishy. I don't just accept fishy stories as truth... especially not "friend of a friend told me". So I pointed out how in my experience the manner which missionaries work differed from the details iof your story. It sounds like your friend wanted to believe that she had converted someone, and it didn't happen, and now she's holding onto the idea that the reason why he never came back is because the big, bad, evil Mormons are forbidding it.

Now you're pretending like just because you told a story that no one should question you on the details. Not only that, but pretending that questioning your story's details is somehow ignorant.

How pathetic.

[Nikolai]

Talk of putting words into my mouth. But I get it, you're obviously trolling.

[Aeson]

Sorry that you couldn't stand to have your story analyzed. Too bad that "open mind" you're so worried about in Xian to Xian discussions doesn't extend elsewhere.

[Nikolai]

Look, I know you are trolling, took me a while to realize that, but anyway: I have no "story". I posted a small remark in response to the OP. Nothing big or important. But your trolling have made this entire thread about it, for no reason. In a way, good job. That other sentence of yours gave no meaning btw.

[Berzerker]

LDS missionaries are encouraged to talk to anyone willing to discuss the gospel. Things they are told to stay away from are temptations... girls, parties, drinking/drugs, anger... stuff like that.

I think this is where religion goes off the track, avoiding "sin" and temptation kinda misses the point. If the Creator gave us temptation as some kind of test of our character then you gotta face temptation, not avoid it. Many fundie types dont like the fact we have a bunch of liquor stores because its a temptation. Well, yeah... Either buy some booze or walk on by, but deal with the temptation as you choose and let the rest of us do the same. Hell, some Muslims wont even allow music and want to ban it. And why do these Muslim men insist women be covered from head to toe? Because men will feel lust if they see skin? Avoid temptation, cover women up and ignore the hypocrisy and shift the blame just like Adam. I am not impressed

[Aeson]

Call it whatever you like, your labelling is irrelevent. The reality is that you're now trying to hide from discussion on the validity of your statements. Kinda ironic given what your statements were about. Did one of your religious leaders tell you not to discuss it with me or something? Am I converting you to teh evilness?

The second sentence was alluding to your statement: "And that concerns me. Any Christian should always be open for the possibility that one's view on different matters in Christian theology can be wrong. After all, we are all less-than-perfect humans."

[Aeson]

Originally posted by Berzerker
I think this is where religion goes off the track, avoiding "sin" and temptation kinda misses the point. If the Creator gave us temptation as some kind of test of our character then you gotta face temptation, not avoid it. Many fundie types dont like the fact we have a bunch of liquor stores because its a temptation. Well, yeah... Either buy some booze or walk on by, but deal with the temptation as you choose and let the rest of us do the same. Hell, some Muslims wont even allow music and want to ban it. And why do these Muslim men insist women be covered from head to toe? Because men will feel lust if they see skin? Avoid temptation, cover women up and ignore the hypocrisy and shift the blame just like Adam. I am not impressed

It's perfectly reasonable to have moral codes that warn away from voluntarily entering into certain situations. We have physical reactions to various stimulus that is not a choice. Our "choice" in that regard is whether to subject ourselves to the stimulus or not.

I do agree that trying to eliminate "temptation" from the environment and force everyone to "behave" is not very reasonable though. (Especially for religions who believe Lucifer was the one who suggested such a thing as the path to salvation.)

[Berzerker]

It's perfectly reasonable to have moral codes that warn away from voluntarily entering into certain situations.

Thats ambiguous enough, but Jesus sure didn't shy away. He ate with the unclean, faced the devil's temptation in the desert, and even let a tax collector join his posse. And what did he say about these outcasts? They were closer to the kingdom of heaven than the fundies who were all caught up in legalisms and punishing sin.

[Alexander I]

I'm a Mormon.
I served a full-time two-year Latter-day Saint mission from 2001-2003, so I'd be glad to answer any reasonable questions anybody has about LDS doctrine, missionaries, etc.

Oh, and @ Strangelove, Lorizael, etc.:
It's Kolob. According to the Book of Abraham, that's the name of the star nearest to Heaven. It's only mentioned in passing, and that's really all there is to it. It's a rather minute LDS factoid, and is of about as much doctrinal significance to Mormons as St. Peter's pinky finger is to Roman Catholics.

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by Alexander I
I'm a Mormon.
I served a full-time two-year Latter-day Saint mission from 2001-2003, so I'd be glad to answer any reasonable questions anybody has about LDS doctrine, missionaries, etc.

I have a bunch of questions for you:


1. Do Mormons really believe that men can become Gods?

2. Do Mormons really believe that the Judeo-Christian god was once a human man?

3. Do Mormons believe that that god created humanity?

4. If the answers to numbers two and three are yes, then where did God come from? How can he be a human if he created humanity? Was he an alien?

5. What is the significance of Jesus to Mormonism?

6. If Mormons believe that men can become gods, then what powers do they receive? If the Judeo-Christian god was once a man, what did that man do during life to become a god that is as powerful as he is reputed to be? Is there a god strength scale? If one would live a life even greater and more upright than the Judeo-Christian god lived when he was a man, would it be theoretically possible to become an even more powerful god than god himself?

7. Why do Mormons symbollicaly baptise dead people who weren't Mormons?

8. What is the story behind the "magic underwear" rumor?

I understand that I've asked a whole load of questions, and I won't be insulted if you choose not to answer them. I'm just legitimately mystified by your religion, and I'd like to understand it better.

[Berzerker]

I'd be glad to answer any reasonable questions anybody has about LDS doctrine

It's Kolob. According to the Book of Abraham, that's the name of the star nearest to Heaven.

What is the word's origin and which star is it?

1. Do Mormons really believe that men can become Gods?

Didn't Jesus say something like that? He told his buddies that they would be like gods and judge even the angels. What did God say about Adam and Eve when he discovered they could procreate? Let us block their path to the tree of life or they will become gods living forever.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Alexander I
Oh, and @ Strangelove, Lorizael, etc.:
It's Kolob. According to the Book of Abraham, that's the name of the star nearest to Heaven. It's only mentioned in passing, and that's really all there is to it. It's a rather minute LDS factoid, and is of about as much doctrinal significance to Mormons as St. Peter's pinky finger is to Roman Catholics.

That much, huh? I seriously doubt that they sell rocks claiming to be pieces of that star.

[Alexander I]

@ Wycoff:

Originally posted by Wycoff
I have a bunch of questions for you:
...
I understand that I've asked a whole load of questions, and I won't be insulted if you choose not to answer them. I'm just legitimately mystified by your religion, and I'd like to understand it better.

No problem. I'm happy to answer your questions.

Mind you, I'm no official Church spokesman, just a regular member, so I may not have all the answers myself, but I'll answer to the best of my ability. I'll refer you to scriptures and to statements of doctrine by church leaders in instances where I feel extra clarification is needed.

Originally posted by Wycoff
1. Do Mormons really believe that men can become Gods?

Yes. Mormons believe that humans are the spirit children of God, and that God literally created man in His image. We believe that God's work and glory is bringing about both His children's immortality and exaltation. (For future reference, exaltation refers to becoming like God.) You could say that our Heavenly Father wants His children to "grow up to be just like Him."

We believe in the principle of "eternal progression" which I'll explain later on.

Originally posted by Wycoff
2. Do Mormons really believe that the Judeo-Christian god was once a human man?

Yes, we believe that God became exalted the same way that we can become exalted, though no further details about that have been revealed.

Originally posted by Wycoff
3. Do Mormons believe that that god created humanity?

In a manner of speaking. Since we believe both that we are created in God's image and that we are His spirit children, we do believe that He created us; we are His offspring.

Originally posted by Wycoff
4. If the answers to numbers two and three are yes, then where did God come from? How can he be a human if he created humanity? Was he an alien?

This is rather esoteric doctrine in the Church, with a lot of theological theory. We believe that God created this universe and populated the earth with His children.

Since we believe that God was once like us and that we can become like Him, one would surmise that he had a mortal experience in some other plane of existence under the guiding hand of his own Heavenly Father. Since Mormons believe that we can become Gods under God, it is a logical extrapolation that he did the same.

As said previously, God's work and glory is to help his children become like Him, indeed veritable Gods in our own right. The doctrine of eternal progression is that this has been going on for eternity and will continue to go on for eternity, that God went through this experience, is helping us to do so, and that as exalted Gods we would do the same for our own spirit children.

Originally posted by Wycoff
5. What is the significance of Jesus to Mormonism?

Jesus Christ is the central figure of Latter-day Saint beliefs. He is both the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh and the Firstborn of God's spirit children. In mortality, He was the only perfect man. He is the Savior and Redeemer of mankind, and it is only by His Atonement (suffering and dying for men's sins, both in Gethsemane and on the cross at Calvary) that we can be saved and exalted. Thus, Latter-day Saints believe that man is saved by grace. He is our Advocate with God the Father.

We believe that we are only able to access the Atonement through obedience to the principles and ordinances of Christ's gospel. ("If ye love me, keep my commandments." -John 14:15) The principles are quite simple: Faith in Jesus Christ and Repentance of sins. The ordinances are outward symbols of inward covenants that one makes with God. Some of the principal ordinances are: Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38), Confirmation, or the Laying on of Hands for the Gift of the Holy Ghost (Acts 8:17), the Endowment (the primary Temple ordinance) (Luke 24:49). Through these principles and ordinances we show Christ that we are willing to do what He sets forth as the path to access the blessings of His Atonement.

So because we are all sinners, we are not able to become exalted except through Jesus Christ and His Atonement.

He is pivotal to God's work, providing immortality to all through His Resurrection, and salvation and exaltation to the faithful through His Atonement. Thus, again He is the central figure in Latter-day Saint religion, and indeed this is reflected in the official name of the church, "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."

Originally posted by Wycoff
6. If Mormons believe that men can become gods, then what powers do they receive? If the Judeo-Christian god was once a man, what did that man do during life to become a god that is as powerful as he is reputed to be? Is there a god strength scale? If one would live a life even greater and more upright than the Judeo-Christian god lived when he was a man, would it be theoretically possible to become an even more powerful god than god himself?

It doesn't really work that way. Exaltation/Godhood is perceived as a state of existence rather than a power scale. In striving for exaltation, one is simply trying to become like God through emulation. ("Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect." -- Matthew 5:48)

Becoming like God entails participating in His work, the immortality and exaltation of spirit children. That could potentially include creating worlds and populating them with one's own spiritual offspring, though having not experienced it myself, I couldn't say for sure.

Originally posted by Wycoff
7. Why do Mormons symbolically baptise dead people who weren't Mormons?

Baptism by vicarious proxy for the dead is done simply because we believe that the ordinance of baptism is necessary for salvation (John 3:5), and that it must be done in both the correct manner and with the proper authority in order to be efficacious. Thus, church members are able to perform this ordinance on behalf of their deceased ancestors who did not have the opportunity themselves.

Originally posted by Wycoff
8. What is the story behind the "magic underwear" rumor?

As part of Temple ordinances, Latter-day Saints receive "the Temple Garment." It is quite simply a symbol of the covenants made in the Temple, and is worn as a reminder.
It is not perceived as "magic," rather, it is a symbol of the fact that obedience to the principles of the Gospel grants protection from sin to those who are faithful.

If you want more information, a comprehensive explanation by one of the church leaders can be found here: http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOr...____&hideNav=1

This concise article discusses what the garment and its purpose are, as well as its historical precedents.

I hope I was able to answer your questions to your satisfaction. I tried to be as concise and clear as I could, but I realize that this is quite a bit of information, and I probably opened up as many questions as I answered. So, if you need more clarification or have additional questions, go ahead and let me know.

Edit: I can't seem to make that link work. If you do a yahoo search for "Carlos E. Asay Temple Garment" his article comes up within the first 4 hits. It's the lds.org link.