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Race, Intelligence, & Genetics or How James Watson pissed off a lot of people.
Originally posted by Patroklos
Every boss I have ever had is black, so in my experiance there is no reason to think they are not making it "to the top."
Do you even live on the planet earth?
I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
- Justice Brett Kavanaugh
Originally posted by Lorizael
The only accurate point of view in this situation is the employer's, who knows who he hires and who he doesn't and what his reasons are.
WTF?! No.
I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
- Justice Brett Kavanaugh
Originally posted by Lorizael
That means most of the time but not always. Please, please, please learn that not everything everyone says is an absolute, universal statement. Kant was wrong.
The thing is I only make general statements. Don't bother telling me that blacks are discriminated against unless it is a significant statement. I don't care if one or two of them is discriminated against. That being said, discrimination against blacks IS widespread.
I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
- Justice Brett Kavanaugh
What he said is quite true. Calm down and think about it.
A person who is not hired for a job may suspect he/she has been unfairly discriminated against, but unless the prospective employer did something incredibly stupid (like write a memo saying "I ain't hirin' no negroes!"), he/she cannot know for sure what the employer was thinking. The employer, however, knows what he/she was thinking (one could argue, perhaps, that they are unconciously racist and thus discriminate w/o knowing it, but I don't think that's what we're talking about here. Correct me if I'm wrong there). Ergo, the only one with all the info is the employer.
As Lorizael pointed out, repeated cases of not hiring qualified minorities may indeed be proof of discrimination, but it is quite difficult to prove because you have to show a pattern of behavior and cannot read people's minds.
Lorizael, I find, has been rather sensible in this thread (I've only read the last two pages). The race/class post he made reminded me of how MLK became a class warrior toward the end of his life.
"The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.
That means most of the time but not always. Please, please, please learn that not everything everyone says is an absolute, universal statement. Kant was wrong.
Look. On page 8 you said that white males consistantly end up on top partly due to racial discrimination. This is what I mean about you not being clear. I don't know what you are saying.
I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
- Justice Brett Kavanaugh
My argument, Kid, was that it is not easy for a black man to know when he's been discriminated against, because he lacks vital pieces of information.
Also, a black man may have a tendency to want to believe he is being discriminated againt and so he will interpret the evidence he sees incorrectly, thinking that whenever he doesn't get hired it's racism and ignoring the times he does get hired.
I am also making the argument that the only person that can know whether racism has occurred is the employer who knows his own motivations. A black person may think, "I wasn't hired because that guy was giving me a dirty look," but the employer knows he didn't hire that black guy because he hates those stupid ******s. The employer has the most accurate point of view.
"Partly" and "generally" are the two words that should allow you to reconcile the two statements. There is no confusion.
"The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.
Originally posted by Kidicious
Look. On page 8 you said that white males consistantly end up on top partly due to racial discrimination. This is what I mean about you not being clear. I don't know what you are saying.
Yes. Part of it is discrimination and part of it is environment. Both can be true at the same time. I never speak in absolutes, Kid.
The problem is that people don't see things objectively especially children. In our own minds we want to believe that our race is superior.
Now education is very important if it is done properly. Students should be shown the cost of racism on society, and how our prejudices are wrong. But just putting blacks in classes with whites isn't going to go very far to end racism.
I don't know if you want to say that we aren't born racist. In my experience children tend to prefer their own race. If you teach them to be racist that will just reinforce it though.
They might at first prefer their own race but this will be more because children with other skin colors are unused to them and not because of some inborn racism.
Children on the other hand are extremly good observers. If they see their parents showing the same behavior to people with other skin color as they do to people of their own skin color, they will most likely copy this behavior and for themselves be less shy against differently colored kids.
Same goes for other people impotant to children, like their teachers at Kindergarten for example.
Chuildren see what adults do and they learn from it, and they learn the more, the younger they are.
Tamsin (Lost Girl): "I am the Harbinger of Death. I arrive on winds of blessed air. Air that you no longer deserve." Tamsin (Lost Girl): "He has fallen in battle and I must take him to the Einherjar in Valhalla"
Originally posted by Arrian
A person who is not hired for a job may suspect he/she has been unfairly discriminated against,
but unless the prospective employer did something incredibly stupid (like write a memo saying "I ain't hirin' no negroes!"), he/she cannot know for sure what the employer was thinking. The employer, however, knows what he/she was thinking (one could argue, perhaps, that they are unconciously racist and thus discriminate w/o knowing it, but I don't think that's what we're talking about here. Correct me if I'm wrong there). Ergo, the only one with all the info is the employer.
Except that I'm sure that most employers who actually discriminate to not intend to do so. It's a subconscious decision.
I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
- Justice Brett Kavanaugh
edit: crosspost with Kid. This was written in response to a Lorizael post.
Building off of that, I think that whether or not the employer really does know his own motivations, in full, is an interesting question. There are studies that have shown or at least suggested unconcious racism. Most people don't want to think they're racist, but the reality is that many of us are. And just to make things even murkier, I would think that this unconcious racism would tend manifest when deciding between two roughly comparable applicants...
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