True defenders of freedom of speech told to shut up.

[Dinner]

What I don't get is how the measure passed through Congress. Sure, a few districts contain sizable Armenia populations but why are the other guys from other districts voting for this? I guess it has just become a celebrity cause.

[DinoDoc]

They are stupid.

[Elok]

Originally posted by Arrian
The point here is apparently to shove it in the Turkish government's face. YOU WERE BAD, ADMIT IT!!!

"They" were bad? I thought the atrocities in question were committed by the waning Ottoman Empire just before it went kerplooey and was replaced by the modern Turkish government. So they wouldn't even be at fault, they're just getting defensive out of national pride or something. Was I misinformed?

As for sabotaging the Iraq war, Iraq is going down the crapper at warp speed anyway, no? Might as well tell Turkey off before they attack the Kurds. And this way we might withdraw sooner, stop wasting prodigal amounts of blood and money.

[Wezil]

Stop talking sense Elok.

[Straybow]

On the contrary, the Ottomans weren't waning at the time of the Armenian massacre/genocide. They were kicking butt early in the war.

Kemal's command was not part of the Armenian action. I'm fairly sure Kemal's faction wasn't part of the Pontic massacre/genocide. It is fairly obvious there weren't too many tears shed.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Oerdin
What I don't get is how the measure passed through Congress. Sure, a few districts contain sizable Armenia populations but why are the other guys from other districts voting for this? I guess it has just become a celebrity cause.

There do exist some in Congress who haven't sold all of their morals yet . Those folk may wish to simply call the Armenian Genocide what it was and not try to sugarcoat the past (at least not here).

Besides, teh Reagan called it the Armenian Genocide as well (IIRC, the only US President to do so) .

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Elok

"They" were bad? I thought the atrocities in question were committed by the waning Ottoman Empire just before it went kerplooey and was replaced by the modern Turkish government. So they wouldn't even be at fault, they're just getting defensive out of national pride or something. Was I misinformed?

As for sabotaging the Iraq war, Iraq is going down the crapper at warp speed anyway, no? Might as well tell Turkey off before they attack the Kurds. And this way we might withdraw sooner, stop wasting prodigal amounts of blood and money.

1. Yes, the former Ottoman Empire did it, not the current nation of Turkey. Fine. Obviously, however, the current government is touchy as hell about admitting that. They're pretty fired up about the PPK right now as it is, no?

2. It's not just about Iraq, but rather policy in the entire region. And if we want to protect the Kurds, perhaps retaining some diplomatic capital in Ankara would be wise, no? Instead, let's piss them off so they ignore us when we ask them to take it easy on the Kurds. Of course, if we think the Kurds are totally right & Turks totally wrong, maybe we should just station a division in the Kurdish areas with orders to repell any Turkish incursions. If you want to argue for that, go ahead.

Please understand that I've no problem with calling it a genocide. Many others have already. Anyone who cares to inform themselves about it will find that out in short order.

-Arrian

[OzzyKP]

I say we call it genocide and tell the Turks they can go ahead and make limited strikes against the Kurds in exchange.

It is quite retarded that we are sheltering the Kurdish terrorists and allowing them to attack our supposed ally. Didn't we invade Afghanistan because they were harboring terrorists? Why are we allowed to do it?

[Dinner]

Because the Kurds hate the Turks and will go completely ape**** if we let the Turks in.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
There do exist some in Congress who haven't sold all of their morals yet . Those folk may wish to simply call the Armenian Genocide what it was and not try to sugarcoat the past (at least not here).

We had the chance to stand on principle in 1915 when the American ambassador appealed to Wilson in order to stop what he saw was going on. We didn't. Taking a meaningless stand on the issue now when the lives that were at stake then have long since passed from this mortal coil stikes me as hypocritical stutting in order to salve some oversensetive consciences.

Stop talking sense Elok.

Except he isn't and given the fact he isn't a gibbering moron, I'd wager he knows it. Letting Turkey in without the permission of the central government would only serve to widen the conflict he claim to want to end. Far better for the US to simply start treating AQI and the PKK the same if they continue attacks on our ally rather than compounding the violence by widening it.

[Kuciwalker]

Of course, if we think the Kurds are totally right & Turks totally wrong, maybe we should just station a division in the Kurdish areas with orders to repell any Turkish incursions.

Fighting with NATO members is a nono.

[Elok]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Except he isn't and given the fact he isn't a gibbering moron, I'd wager he knows it. Letting Turkey in without the permission of the central government would only serve to widen the conflict he claim to want to end. Far better for the US to simply start treating AQI and the PKK the same if they continue attacks on our ally rather than compounding the violence by widening it.

Eh, I was mostly speaking from the heart. As a matter of foreign policy it's certainly not good to PO our ally over a century-old atrocity, but I don't view this as catastrophic. It seems quite plain to me that we've already lost Iraq, and that the Turks have made up their mind to attack the Kurds one way or another. I want the conflict to end, yes, but I also want a totally renewable, nonpolluting, readily available form of energy. The realist (or the cynic) in me says that the damned mess is going to get a lot worse before it gets better.

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

Of course, if we think the Kurds are totally right & Turks totally wrong, maybe we should just station a division in the Kurdish areas with orders to repell any Turkish incursions.

Fighting with NATO members is a nono.

Righto. So perhaps we ought to be having a chat with the PPK, eh? Or with non-PPK Kurds who may be in a position to reign them in? Maybe we could even offer to mediate between the Turks and Kurds so they can quit shooting each other. Not that I'd have high hopes, but it would be worth trying.

-Arrian

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Serb

I'd ban you for that.


Siro for Moderator 2008

[Shrapnel12]

I think the real question is why now? With everything else going on, why did this issue come out now? Congress has been hell bent on fighting Bush on the Iraq War and suddenly they take the time out to discuss some obscure issue that noone ever thought of before? Call me a conspiracy theorist, but the Democrats are up to something. From the discussion here, that something seems to be to purposefully deteriorate relations with Turkey and to destabalize Iraq further.