Republican aggresors grow skeptical of free trade

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by snoopy369


Technological advances occur because of war, more often than anything else, because there's a lot more incentive to innovate to the government during wartime... that is a force rather independent of trade, or of capitalism, or anything else really.

Meaning that free trade capitalism doesn't provide incentive for innovation.

[Barnabas]

Not really, more like it doesnt provide more incentive than other systems

For innovation what you need is scientists in a lab with enough resources, it doesnt matter if it is a commie or capitalist country.

[Kuciwalker]

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[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Meaning that free trade capitalism doesn't provide incentive for innovation.

This is absolutely true for fundamental research. The US totally ignored FR until WWI. Then they realized that it could be useful; but the major advances in science such as nuclear energy needed European scientists during WWII, and even after space research and dev required German specialists. Then the US FR developed considerably under government programs. Capitalism alone is not able to finance very great fundamental research programs (Large Hadron Collider, for instance).

[Kuciwalker]

This is absolutely true for fundamental research.

You're kidding, right? Free trade has nothing to do with fundamental research, it has to do with the number, type and funding of universities.

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

This is absolutely true for fundamental research.

You're kidding, right? Free trade has nothing to do with fundamental research, it has to do with the number, type and funding of universities.

If you read my post, and are not retarded as you often find me, you will see that I am referring to capitalism. Capitalism is an economic theory which is not summarized by free trade; it can even exists with total protectionism. Free trade is the cancer of the capitalism.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Barnabas
Not really, more like it doesnt provide more incentive than other systems

For innovation what you need is scientists in a lab with enough resources, it doesnt matter if it is a commie or capitalist country.

Right. You need a mixed economy, as in government command, for that kind of research to occur.

[Kidlicious]

I think the the Republican opposition to free trade is the argument that free trade make America week. And the Democratic argument is that it's bad for jobs and wages for the lower income group.

I think on both sides of it though the hipe for free trade has always been incredible. Free trade has not lived up to the hipe. Not even close by any standards.

[Vanguard]

Even in economic theory, free trade is only good if it develops comparative advantage. No comparative advantage, no benefit from trade.

Trading dollars for goods, by itself, results in no comparative advantage and therefore no benefit.

I admit that I have sometimes fallen into the trap of believing that trading dollars for goods can only be good for us. But it is not true. Dollars are debt. Like other forms of debt, buying foreign goods with dollars instead of our own goods is economically great....... as long as you can do it. Unfortunately however, you can't do it forever.

And once you no longer can, you are in for an economic nightmare. Running up debt is really great. Paying it down is a total *****. The result of thirty years of buying good for dollars is a world economy based around supplying consumer goods to Americans that can no longer afford to buy them because they no longer have jobs producing consumer goods.

China does not produce goods more efficiently than we do. They just produce goods more cheaply. There is no overall economic advantage to that.

[Kidlicious]

I would believe in free trade if corporations didn't use cheaper labor in other countries. I'm positive that that's not what classical economics were talking about when they argued for free trade. That, in fact, creates inefficiencies. Things are produced for the cheap labor not where they can be brought to market with the least amount of labor.

[Kataphraktoi]

Originally posted by Vanguard
Even in economic theory, free trade is only good if it develops comparative advantage. No comparative advantage, no benefit from trade.

Trading dollars for goods, by itself, results in no comparative advantage and therefore no benefit.

I admit that I have sometimes fallen into the trap of believing that trading dollars for goods can only be good for us. But it is not true. Dollars are debt. Like other forms of debt, buying foreign goods with dollars instead of our own goods is economically great....... as long as you can do it. Unfortunately however, you can't do it forever.

And once you no longer can, you are in for an economic nightmare. Running up debt is really great. Paying it down is a total *****. The result of thirty years of buying good for dollars is a world economy based around supplying consumer goods to Americans that can no longer afford to buy them because they no longer have jobs producing consumer goods.

China does not produce goods more efficiently than we do. They just produce goods more cheaply. There is no overall economic advantage to that.

It is gaining us competitive advantage. People need to stop thinking in terms of the industrial age and measuring by factories and workers. It is true there is a worker class here with declining wages\future. They have to be eliminated as a class sometime, just like they eliminated classes before them.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Kataphraktoi
It is true there is a worker class here with declining wages\future. They have to be eliminated as a class sometime, just like they eliminated classes before them.

[Kataphraktoi]

Double post;I havnt figured out where i stand on the whole free trade thing, but one thing is, trade with china is NOT stripping our industrial capacity. Losses in workers and factories is more than compensated by mechanical advances, IMO. If you look closely the industrial capability is still here.

China has alot of factories manned with underpaid grunts churning our rubbish and polluting the environment. Thats an advantage how?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Kataphraktoi
Double post;I havnt figured out where i stand on the whole free trade thing, but one thing is, trade with china is NOT stripping our industrial capacity. Losses in workers and factories is more than compensated by mechanical advances, IMO. If you look closely the industrial capability is still here.

Um no it's not. We are using most of that capacity. Stopping trade with China would require increasing capacity quite a bit.

[Kataphraktoi]

Doable. Except for whiners who couldnt stomach a decrease in waste and consumption

I was more reffering to the military industrial capacity for war items, since i see or used to hear alot of *****ing about that.