Big Victory for Bush administration

[Whoha]

Originally posted by PLATO


Oh, of course. A Uranium bomb would be completely different.

While this may be technically correct, this was a clear violation of the intention of the agreement.

It would, why you need a Uranium bomb to act as a starter for much larger weapons supposedly banned by the agreement.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
North Korea has never pledged disarmament for such rewards and under such inspection. For the love of god you people would tell me it is raining if it were snowing. Completely unbelievable the lengths to which you will go to deceive people about these verifiable facts.

You are a mildly entertaining little troll, I'll give you that.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by PLATO

Victory through pressure and negotiation is not preferable to bombing them? Agathon! C'mon man...he has always said he wanted to work through non military means on this problem.

Yes, NK's nuclear program was designed for two things...to get concessions and to build a bomb. Looks like it was successful...just as the efforts to dismantle it look like they have a chance for sucess. Win-win? Could be.

Lastly, it was far more than Bush who derailed the sunshine policy and you know it.

So let me get this straight.

We've now essentially gone back to the situation as it was when Bush called North Korea part of an "Axis of Evil", and this is somehow an incredible victory.

Sounds more like the restoration of the status quo to me. North Korea doesn't need nuclear weapons to deter attack, since everyone knows they could flatten Seoul in about half an hour with conventional weapons, and there is nothing that anyone could do about it. Similarly, North Korea cannot hope to wage war against the south, since it would be beaten and the Kim regime would be overthrown.

Neither country covered itself in glory under the previous arrangement, and perhaps neither will in this case. All this has done is put the clock back to before Bush mouthed off without thinking. Frankly, the South Koreans and the Chinese are the only rational parties in this "debate".

But please, continue with the delusions that your countrymen are so famous for.

[Eli]

Originally posted by Zkribbler


All we needs is several hundred thousand pissed-off Iranian soldiers pouring across the border into Iraq.

What PLATO said. An Iranian military attack is going to be a sad but fascinating spectacle on CNN.

[DinoDoc]

We're not the IDF. Do it yourself.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
How do you scare them into something they'd been working toward since before you got into office?

As I said, neither side really lived up to that agreement. Just blaming the North Koreans is disingenuous. US - North Korea relations is basically two groups of maniacal idiots playing at diplomacy.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Eli

What PLATO said. An Iranian military attack is going to be a sad but fascinating spectacle on CNN.

You obviously didn't read the second part of what he said. What makes you think that the Iranians would invade en masse? If they were smart, they'd just sneak guerillas over the border.

Remember, it isn't the Iranians that stick out like sore thumbs in Iraq.

You would think that as an Israeli, you would have a more reasonable perspective given recent events.

The US cannot hope to invade Iran. There are too many Iranians and it would simply be Iraq, but 10 times worse.

The US cannot hope to do anything other than bomb Iran from the air. Well, we all know how well that worked out for Israel with Lebanon, and there's no reason to think that the US Air Force will do any better than the Israelis did.

But lastly. During the last Lebanon war, it wasn't feasible for Hezbollah to send units into Israel to fight back. If the US attacks Iran, it will be very feasible for Iran to send guerillas into Iraq. a country where they already have many allies, including many in the puppet government. At least the Israelis had their own turf to retreat to. The US doesn't even have that in Iraq.

[DinoDoc]

If you admit that they didn't live up to the agreement, what makes tyou think that's Bush suddenly scared them to start a program in existance since the Clinton admin?

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by PLATO


Victory through pressure and negotiation is not preferable to bombing them? Agathon! C'mon man...he has always said he wanted to work through non military means on this problem.

Funny definition of victory: We'll give you stuff to go through the motions of appearing to abandon something you weren't ever supposed to have, due to your last agreement to abandon something in return for giving you stuff.

Net result, Kimmypoo gets more concessions, gets his government propped up for a while, and the DRPK will be able to revive its nuke program at a future date of convenience, while nothing is done about DPRK conventional weapons, weapons and weapons technology export, or any form of regime change.

Yes, NK's nuclear program was designed for two things...to get concessions and to build a bomb. Looks like it was successful...just as the efforts to dismantle it look like they have a chance for sucess. Win-win? Could be.

Kimmypoo definitely wins. What do we get? We give away unilateral aid for something resembling the status quo ante?

Lastly, it was far more than Bush who derailed the sunshine policy and you know it.

True, and most of the derailment could be blamed on Kimmypoo, as he figured how to get something for nothing, instead of the pressure to reform that is inherent in proceeding with the sunshine policy.

[Agathon]

You know, if Iran invaded Iraq, I bet they'd be welcomed as liberators.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Agathon
As I said, neither side really lived up to that agreement. Just blaming the North Koreans is disingenuous. US - North Korea relations is basically two groups of maniacal idiots playing at diplomacy.

I don't know if that's fair to NK.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat

Net result, Kimmypoo gets more concessions, gets his government propped up for a while, and the DRPK will be able to revive its nuke program at a future date of convenience, while nothing is done about DPRK conventional weapons, weapons and weapons technology export, or any form of regime change.

Come on man. There really isn't any alternative but to prop them up. Otherwise the regime will fall, and you'll get a million North Koreans schlepping their way across the DMZ to get to Seoul, which will cause a gigantic crisis in the South Korean economy and probably threaten its democracy.

Part of the sunshine policy is the South trying to avoid the North collapsing, since it's better to pay out quite large sums as insurance against your society collapsing. People don't realize how selfish it is.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Kidicious

I don't know if that's fair to NK.

North Korean diplomacy isn't.

That's what you get when your diplomatic corps doesn't really understand the world outside. Iraq was a bit like this, but North Korea is a much more closed society.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that North Korea's diplomats have anything like a normal view of the world. Juche is not really a recognizable form of Marxism any more. It's simply a fig leaf for a tyrannical gang with a gang leader who probably isn't up to the job, but had to do it or be killed by others who wanted to.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Agathon
North Korean diplomacy isn't.

That's what you get when your diplomatic corps doesn't really understand the world outside. Iraq was a bit like this, but North Korea is a much more closed society.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that North Korea's diplomats have anything like a normal view of the world. Juche is not really a recognizable form of Marxism any more. It's simply a fig leaf for a tyrannical gang with a gang leader who probably isn't up to the job, but had to do it or be killed by others who wanted to.

You prefer Cuban diplomacy? What are their options? They seem to do pretty well considering what they have to work with.

[Vesayen]

Why dosen't the international community just vote to give China ownership of North Korea?

They ALREADY have nukes....

Problem solved!