U.S. Snipers Accused of 'Baiting' Iraqis

[SlowwHand]

Untrue. He was secured and handed over to the authorities. He broke a cease fire, which let "us" in.

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Its my understanding the members of the UN did not want an int'l organization meddling in the internal affairs of the member states.

Easy to understand when you look at the members that make up that club.

[Berzerker]

Trust me, Americans wouldn't go for a treaty that let an int'l body vote on invading us

[Wezil]

Never was an issue. You just gave yerself a veto.

[Berzerker]

yup, forgot about that

damn, just started watching Survivor this year because I have the hots for Ashley Massaro (inspite of those damn lip rings) and she got voted out after the 2nd episode

I bet they get a significant ratings drop now

[Xorbon]

I thought one of the main strategies of the U.S. right now is to win the hearts and minds of the average Iraqi citizen. This tactic of "baiting" doesn't seem to contribute to that strategy very much.

Baiting, as described in the article, is immoral and should be illegal under international law if it isn't already.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Xorbon
I thought one of the main strategies of the U.S. right now is to win the hearts and minds of the average Iraqi citizen. This tactic of "baiting" doesn't seem to contribute to that strategy very much.

Baiting, as described in the article, is immoral and should be illegal under international law if it isn't already.

Uhh, the idea is to do it where the hearts and minds are pretty much on the other side.

Besides, war is generally fairly immoral.

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by lord of the mark

Iraq is not occupied territory under fourth Geneva. Iraq is legally a sovereign state under the Baghdad govt, as recognized by the UN. The US occupation formally ended several years ago. Iraqi forces, and forces in Iraq with the consent of the Iraqi govt (subject to a status of forces agreement), are allowed the same rights any other sovereign state is allowed in fighting an insurgency on its own terriory.

Yeah, just like the German WW2 troops in Norway was not an occupation force, but invited by the Quisling government to help supress the insurgency.

[dannubis]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

That is nice and well in a civilized country with a rule of law.

Currently Iraq is a battlefield of insurgency, with tons of irregular combatants that disguise themselves as civilians.

Are you seriously suggesting that a huge insurgency / civil war, be fought with a full court procedure for every suspected insurgent combatant?

This is nuts!

Ah the good old "Kill em all, God will know his own" ploy.

[Xorbon]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Uhh, the idea is to do it where the hearts and minds are pretty much on the other side.

Besides, war is generally fairly immoral.

You have a point. War is immoral, or at least amoral. Morality does get twisted during times of war.

But I'd prefer it if a civilized 1st world country would try to minimize civilian deaths as much as possible (even among the "stupid" civilians who would take the bait). And this tactic is sure to cause the occasional civilian death.

But then I'm against mines and cluster bombs, just to show you where I stand.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by dannubis
Ah the good old "Kill em all, God will know his own" ploy.

If you want to win war using pansy tactics and without taking calculated risks, then good luck.

But I though you already said that you don't want to win the war, nor do you want to participate, nor do you like conflicts.

I'd hate to see how you deal with fanatical insurgents coming your way.

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

If you want to win war using pansy tactics and without taking calculated risks, then good luck.

But I though you already said that you don't want to win the war, nor do you want to participate, nor do you like conflicts.

I'd hate to see how you deal with fanatical insurgents coming your way.

US has already lost the war, so they might as well use whatever tactic they want.

They lost the early war of hearts and minds, and now it's too late to fix it. If they wanted to be greeted as liberators, they should have acted like it. The whole thing has turned into a "damned if you do, damned if you don't".

[Riesstiu IV]

I don't see anything wrong with this. Except leaving out expensive stuff like ammunition is a bad idea. They should try using candy and toys.

[Sirotnikov]

They lost the early war of hearts and minds, and now it's too late to fix it. If they wanted to be greeted as liberators, they should have acted like it. The whole thing has turned into a "damned if you do, damned if you don't".

well i'm not sure.

the hearts and minds thing goes on constantly.
i think that wherever americans can achieve increased stability and security, they will be liked.

[Lord Avalon]

Army sniper acquitted of murder in Iraq

BAGHDAD - A military panel acquitted U.S. Army Spc. Jorge G. Sandoval of two counts of murder Friday, apparently swayed by testimony from fellow Army snipers that two Iraqi men were killed on orders from a higher ranking soldier.

Sandoval was convicted of a less serious charge of planting detonation wire on one of the bodies to make it look like the victim was an insurgent. As a result, he still could face five years in prison. The seven-member jury deliberated less than two hours in clearing him of all but one charge.

Sandoval, 22, of Laredo, Texas, had faced five charges in the deaths of the two unidentified Iraqi men. In dramatic testimony during the two-day court-martial, Sandoval's colleagues testified they were following orders when they shot the men during two separate incidents, on April 27 and May 11. The shootings took place near Iskandariyah, a volatile Sunni-dominated area 30 miles south of Baghdad.

Spc. Alexander Flores, of Hayward, Calif., who was in the same squad as Sandoval on the day of the April killing, testified their platoon leader said the suspect was "our guy" and ordered them to "move in," which they interpreted as "take the target out."

The suspect, who wore dark clothing and used a sickle to cut grass in a field, matched the general description Iraqi soldiers had given the Americans of one of two insurgents they had faced earlier in the day, according to testimony.

After the killing, Flores said Staff Sgt. Michael Hensley told him (Flores) to place the detonation wire on the body and in the man's pocket, which he said he did.

But prosecutors cited an interview with Sandoval immediately after his arrest in which he said he planted the wire. Outside court, Flores stood by his testimony.

"He was just doing his job, as he was told. It's not his fault," said Flores, who, along with the rest of Sandoval's sniper platoon, greeted him with hugs and well wishes.

In the May shooting, Sgt. Evan Vela said Hensley told him to shoot a man who had stumbled upon their snipers' hideout, although he was not armed and had his hands in the air when he approached the soldiers.

"He (Hensley) asked me if I was ready. I had the pistol out. I heard the word shoot. I don't remember pulling the trigger. It took me a second to realize that the shot came from the pistol in my hand," Vela testified, crying.

Vela said as the Iraqi man was convulsing on the ground, "Hensley kind of laughed about it and hit the guy on the throat and said shoot again."

"After he (the Iraqi man) was shot, Hensley pulled an AK-47 out of his rucksack and said, 'this is what we are going to say happened,'" said Vela, who testified on Thursday under a deal that bars his account of events from being used against him when he goes to trial. Sandoval, who was charged with murder because prosecutors said he did nothing to stop the killing, also was acquitted Friday of charges he planted the weapon on the second man's body.

Vela of Rigby, Idaho and Hensley of Candler, N.C., are both charged in the case and will be tried separately. All three soldiers are part of the Headquarters and Headquarters Company, 1st Battalion, 501st Infantry Regiment, 4th Brigade (Airborne), 25th Infantry Division, based at Fort Richardson, Alaska.

Lawyers for Sandoval urged on Friday that he be sentenced only for misplacement of public or private property, which carries no more than six months in prison. The prosecution argued Sandoval should be punished for obstruction of justice, which carries a maximum five-year sentence. The same military panel that reached a decision on his guilt will sentence Sandoval early Saturday.

"Anyone who has been charged with murder for their first kill on the battlefield on the order of his superior and is found not guilty is happy," Capt. Craig Drummond, a defense attorney, said outside court after the verdict. "Today, what the panel concluded, was justice. This soldier is not guilty."

Vela's lawyer Gary Myers claimed this week that Army snipers hunting insurgents in Iraq were under orders to "bait" their targets with suspicious materials, such as detonation cords, then kill those who picked up the items. He said his client was acting on orders.

Asked about the existence of the "baiting program," Drummond, Sandoval's military defense attorney, said it was unclear "what programs were going on out there and when," especially "if there were things that were done that made the rules of engagement not clear."

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