U.S. Snipers Accused of 'Baiting' Iraqis

[East Street Trader]

Thed proposition that someone looking at something left lying about is a terrorist or has done something which justifies shooting and killing them is loopy.

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
If they're that damn dumb, then wave adios to them.
Here we are in war-torn Iraq. What might this be?

Wow. Just think about that for a moment, Sloww.

Imagine a random Iraqi civilian living in his country being ruled by the brutal Saddam. Now, as brutal as Saddam is, if this random Iraqi civilian isn't one of the people Mr. President dislikes, he should live a relatively decent life.

So, we have a random Iraqi civilian living a relatively decent life. We invade his country, destroy his government, destroy the infrastructure around him, maybe kill a few of his relatives, and then begin to occupy his country.

He spends the next few years trying to rebuild his life in the face of growing terrorism, increased military presence, and a general sense of chaos and destruction. He manages okay, but has to get used to not being frightened by everything he sees. Eventually, afters years of this, he's become inured to the constant violence and danger.

He sees something strange on the ground. He examines it. We blow his head off.

I mean seriously, is that good? Is that okay?

[Patroklos]

He sees something strange on the ground. He examines it.

I guarantee you Iraqi civilians are probably very good at NOT approaching suspicious items at this point.

Though I see you point as gunfire seems to be an excuse to run into the street and jump around.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by GePap


That is sad, given that the problem with that is so monumnetally obvious.

It's a variant on one of the oldest tricks in the book in sniper fieldcraft.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

Yes, sneaking up to a bunch of explosives, examining them and then trying to sneak away with them is not evidence of intent to use them at all...

Normal people do that all the time.

Just yesterday I saw a huge RPG laying around, so I looked at it, and took it to myself. Perfectly normal thing to do.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

there's always a small chance that the person picking up the bait is really innocent and stupid

That to me is what makes this horrible. There are always dumb, curious people, who'll see something and look down and examine it. I'm not sure shooting that person without more is something that should be done.

There's also an active insurgency which doesn't bother with the niceties of uniforms or other distinguishing marks, etc.

Knowing that you have (with or without your support) fighters in your midst who operate in civilian clothing, operate from civilian areas, disappear back into the civilian population and use weapons/supplies of opportunity to attack the infidel crusader invaders^TM probably reduces one's curiosity quite a bit.

Not that Saddam's regime ever really cultivated curiousity as an esteemed national value.

[Wiglaf]

Originally posted by MarkG
so killing innocent people based on an action that only an idiot would characterize as evidence is pretty normal for you.

Again, there is no proof whatsoever this is what happened. A lawyer came up with this to defend his guilty-as-hell clients, and it isn't the first time.

If, hypothetically speaking, this were true, I think it is wrong to shoot civilians unless it is clear they are attempting to acquire illegal weapons.

[Tingkai]

There is evidence in the sworn testimony of a captain of the sniper team, who is not among those charged. He described the baiting tactic.

"Army officers involved in evidentiary hearings in Baghdad in July did not dispute the existence or use of a baiting program."

"After visiting the sniper unit in Iraq, members of the Asymmetrical Warfare Group gave soldiers ammunition boxes containing so-called “drop items” like bullets, plastic explosives and bomb detonation cords to use to pinpoint Iraqis involved in insurgent activity, according to Capt. Matthew P. Didier, a sniper platoon leader who gave sworn testimony in the accused soldiers’ court hearings.

"Captain Didier, in a sworn statement about the program that was obtained by The New York Times, described baiting as “putting an object out there that we know they will use, with the intention of destroying the enemy.”

"After placing the bait, snipers observed the area around it, Captain Didier said in his statement. “If someone found the item, picked it up and attempted to leave with the item,” he said, “we would engage the individual, as I saw this as a sign that they would use the item against U.S. forces.” (Engage is a military euphemism for firing on or killing an enemy.)"

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/25/world/middleeast/25abuse.html?em&ex=1190952000&en=bdd98d0ddc242e2c&ei=5087%0A

[SlowwHand]

Good.

[Wiglaf]

That is completely reasonable and smart

Again, though, not proven. Sounds good to me though. Maybe they gave the military an idea with their defense

[SlowwHand]

When "their military" dresses in uniform, maybe I'll feel a little differently. Right now, they're S.O.L.
Don't blame us.

[Agathon]

The sad thing is that, given the state of Iraq, things like weapons are really useful and probably worth a lot of money on the black market. Given the context, most people are going to stop to take a look.

I guess it's a bit like dropping hundred dollar bills on an American street and then headshotting anyone who stops to see if they're real.

[Lorizael]

(I'm on your side in this debate, Agathon, but) I'm not sure the American military cares to discriminate between people that use weapons against it and people that sell weapons to people that use weapons against it.

[SlowwHand]

Originally posted by Agathon
I guess it's a bit like dropping hundred dollar bills on an American street and then headshotting anyone who stops to see if they're real.

Not really. That was said before and made no more sense. Unless you think maybe someone would stuff currency down a person's throat, choking them to death.
I haven't heard of much of that going on.

[Patroklos]

Scrooge McDuck never actually drowned in his money bin as far as I can tell.