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The "surge" is a success?

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  • #166
    Originally posted by Ramo


    So are you still going to call Clyburn a traitor, or do you understand how you're completely wrong?
    Uh...no. I understand how you are completely wrong though.

    Clearly, and I do mean clearly, Clyburn sees a positive report as damaging to his parties current stated goals. He indicates that "None of us want to see a bad result in Iraq", but says nothing about how that would change his idiotic stance on troop withdrawal.

    As I said earlier, I really hope you can see his blatant contradictions.
    "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003

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    • #167
      Originally posted by Ramo


      Why should I automatically accept everything the "General on the ground" says? And I didn't say that it is "wrong just because the WH writes it," I was saying that this diminishes the credibility of the report.

      The disagreement by and large is not about the basic facts (though there are those). We already know those. See the Progress report where the Iraqis failed every political benchmark. The disagreement is over the recommendations made based on those facts.
      Okay...I'm willing to listen. Who do you have in mind that would out weigh General Petraeus opinion on the military recomendations?
      "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003

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      • #168
        So you still see no distinction between a report authored by the WH and magical crystal ball that can see into the future?
        "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
        -Bokonon

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        • #169
          Originally posted by Ramo


          And the idea that we should be pretending that Crocker and Petraeus are disinterested, objective observers who have nothing personally invested in the current strategy is absurd.
          Ooo! Nice edit.

          So you are suggesting that Petraeus would alter the facts to justify his strategy. This is what you are saying. You expect Petraeus to lie before you even see the report just because initial indications are positive. That is pathetic.
          "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003

          Comment

          • #170
            Okay...I'm willing to listen. Who do you have in mind that would out weigh General Petraeus opinion on the military recomendations?
            If you want to throw around big names, we can do that for a long time. I made my argument in this and other threads. One that doesn't rely on anyone's deification.
            "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
            -Bokonon

            Comment

            • #171
              Originally posted by Ramo
              So you still see no distinction between a report authored by the WH and magical crystal ball that can see into the future?
              Please read what I wrote before and answer the questions. Restating a poor argument gains no advantage except for those who don't pay attention.
              "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003

              Comment

              • #172
                So you are suggesting that Petraeus would alter the facts to justify his strategy. This is what you are saying. You expect Petraeus to lie before you even see the report just because initial indications are positive. That is pathetic.
                I didn't say that he would lie or alter facts. Putting those words in my post is sad and pathetic. That doesn't mean that the opinion as to what we should be doing is completely objective.
                "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                -Bokonon

                Comment

                • #173
                  Originally posted by Ramo


                  If you want to throw around big names, we can do that for a long time. I made my argument in this and other threads. One that doesn't rely on anyone's deification.
                  Translation: You don't know anybody more qualified than Petraeus do you?

                  This is a great testimony to the fear that the left has on the surge being successful.

                  My thanks to you Ramo for supporting my point.
                  "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003

                  Comment

                  • #174
                    Originally posted by Ramo


                    I didn't say that he would lie or alter facts. Putting those words in my post is sad and pathetic. That doesn't mean that the opinion as to what we should be doing is completely objective.
                    Once again...whose is better?

                    I said I was willing to listen with an open mind................
                    "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003

                    Comment

                    • #175
                      Please read what I wrote before and answer the questions. Restating a poor argument gains no advantage except for those who don't pay attention.

                      You never answered my question. You attribute a deified status to Petraeus. He is not a magical crystal ball. Do you understand the distinction?
                      "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                      -Bokonon

                      Comment

                      • #176
                        Originally posted by Arrian


                        All a leader need do, then, is keep having wars.

                        Regarding saying "we've lost" ... what happens if we HAVE LOST? Stubborn refusal to accept it does what, exactly?

                        -Arrian
                        That's ridiculous because if that leader was known to have led an improper war, he wouldn't have support for anymore wars. Bush didn't just start this war alone. Congress voted for it too. Now enough people think the war is wrong, especially Congress and don't trust Bush. Assuming he was able and so inclined to start another war, he'd never get the support to start one.

                        As for this war, we have not lost in my opinion, but that's a whole other debate.
                        EViiiiiiL!!! - Mermaid Man

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                        • #177
                          Originally posted by Ramo


                          I didn't say that he would lie or alter facts.

                          Why should I automatically accept everything the "General on the ground" says?


                          And the idea that we should be pretending that Crocker and Petraeus are disinterested, objective observers who have nothing personally invested in the current strategy is absurd.


                          Sorry...my mistake.
                          "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003

                          Comment

                          • #178
                            Translation: You don't know anybody more qualified than Petraeus do you?
                            He's a smart guy. There are a bunch of smart guys on both sides of the argument (say, Powell to pick one at random). I'm not going to pretend that I understand who's the most qualified of them all.

                            So I look at the facts, and come up with an opinion for myself.

                            But you're right in that your deification of Petraeus is illustrative of the right wing argument on Iraq.
                            "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                            -Bokonon

                            Comment

                            • #179
                              Sorry...my mistake.
                              Christ. There's a difference between lying about the basic facts, and having your personal experience (like, say, authoring the current strategy) shape your opinion. It's not a subtle one.
                              "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                              -Bokonon

                              Comment

                              • #180
                                Originally posted by Shrapnel12
                                Speaking of being married to an outcome, how sad is it that the success of the Democrats in the 2008 election ride on the failure or America? How pathetic are the democratic leaders for wanting us to lose? Betting against your own country just so you can get elected is worse then the terrorists.
                                This is a rather defaitist (sp?) look on things.

                                If the latter statement is the major reason to get elected, then it's pretty sad.

                                However, my guess is that claimed democrats that want 'to lose' only 'want' so because it will proove their opposition to the war in the right perspective: they told us so.

                                There is a difference though between : I told you so and: I told you so


                                "post reported"Winston, on the barricades for freedom of speech
                                "I don't like laws all over the world. Doesn't mean I am going to do anything but post about it."Jon Miller

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