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The "surge" is a success?

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  • #151
    You say I am wrong for not believing the statements coming form the Petagon about "breaking the army," yet I am also wrong if I believe what they say about the surge?
    I never said anything of the sort. I said that we can't sustain the surge. I didn't dispute what you wrote on the matter; that's the sort of thing that I've been reading. Anyways, troop rotations are a completely different kind of information than the general prognosis of Iraq. The former is an issue of basic fact - something I can expect to get a straight answer from the Pentagon on, while the latter is considerably more complicated.

    So your contention then is that Petraeus' report will be edited by the White House before publishing, or that the White House will order him to lie?
    The White House is writing the report (with input from Petraeus). This has already been acknowledged. I never said anything about lying...
    Despite Bush's repeated statements that the report will reflect evaluations by Petraeus and Ryan Crocker, the U.S. ambassador to Iraq, administration officials said it would actually be written by the White House, with inputs from officials throughout the government.
    Top general may propose pullbacks
    http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-pullback15aug15,0,4840766.story?page=1&coll=la-home-center
    Petraeus is expected to tell Congress that Iraqis can assume duties in some areas, freeing U.S. troops for other uses.
    Last edited by Ramo; August 23, 2007, 12:16.
    "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
    -Bokonon

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    • #152
      Originally posted by Arrian


      Right, so we should never ever criticize.
      -Arrian
      When it comes to war and considering how important morale is, I would say yes. It is the exception to the rule and I know it goes against what is natural to us. But setting that aside, you know there is a difference between constructive criticism and unhelpful, negativism. Saying "We've lost" or "We're going to lose" is not the kind of talk we should hear from our leaders.
      EViiiiiiL!!! - Mermaid Man

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      • #153
        Well I'm not a mind reader. I can only go by the question he asked and his response to it. Perhaps you can explain what he really said with your special insight since it seems clear it isn't the words that appear.
        No, he didn't. See my link. Stop being dishonest.
        "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
        -Bokonon

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        • #154
          When it comes to war and considering how important morale is, I would say yes. It is the exception to the rule and I know it goes against what is natural to us
          I was about to jump on you, but then I read your last sentance.

          "Constructive" is the key word here.
          "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

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          • #155
            Since you're apparantly too lazy to click my link:
            As Media Matters for America has noted, during a July 30 "PostTalk" interview for washingtonpost.com, Post reporter Dan Balz asked Clyburn, "What do Democrats do if General Petraeus comes in in September and says, 'This is working very, very well at this point; we would be foolish to back away from it'?" Clyburn responded: "Well, that would be a real big problem for us, no question about that, simply because of those 47 Blue Dogs. I think there would be enough support in that group to want to stay the course, and if the Republicans were to remain united, as they have been, then it would be a problem for us." In other words, Clyburn did not say that good news from Iraq is bad news for Democrats, as many conservatives have suggested. Rather, he said that a recommendation from Petraeus against "back[ing] away" from the current course in Iraq would impede Democrats' efforts to garner support in Congress for legislation to begin withdrawal. Indeed, Clyburn added: "None of us want to see a bad result in Iraq. If we are going to get in position to yield a good result, I think Democrats want to see that."
            "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
            -Bokonon

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            • #156
              Originally posted by Shrapnel12

              When it comes to war and considering how important morale is, I would say yes. It is the exception to the rule and I know it goes against what is natural to us. But setting that aside, you know there is a difference between constructive criticism and unhelpful, negativism. Saying "We've lost" or "We're going to lose" is not the kind of talk we should hear from our leaders.
              All a leader need do, then, is keep having wars.

              Regarding saying "we've lost" ... what happens if we HAVE LOST? Stubborn refusal to accept it does what, exactly?

              -Arrian
              grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

              The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

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              • #157
                Originally posted by Ramo
                Since you're apparantly too lazy to click my link:
                Hopefully you see the incredible contradictions in what he is saying?
                "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003

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                • #158
                  he said that a recommendation from Petraeus against "back[ing] away" from the current course in Iraq would impede Democrats' efforts to garner support in Congress for legislation to begin withdrawal.
                  Exactly, it would make them incapable of fullfilling their promise because they were wrong. Though it seems clear from the above that he expects Democrats to pursue withdrawl no matter what Petraus says, the only question is will they be able to succeed.
                  "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

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                  • #159
                    I'm not going to say that I agreed with what Clyburn said (i.e. on the waiting for September matter). But a Petraeus report written by the WH saying that we shouldn't withdraw is not the definition of success. This is a really, really simple point.
                    "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                    -Bokonon

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                    • #160
                      A Petraeus report saying that we shouldn't withdraw is not the definition of success. This is a really, really simple point.
                      As nobody said that, what is your point?
                      "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

                      Comment

                      • #161
                        Originally posted by Ramo
                        A Petraeus report written by the WH saying that we shouldn't withdraw is not the definition of success. This is a really, really simple point.
                        I think you are making it to simplistic. It should be obvious that the report will be very heavily scruitinized by everyone for factual accuracy. If it is the conclusion of the General "on the ground" that the surge is working and the facts are supported, then why would you not accept this report.

                        Saying that it is wrong just because the White House writes it is nearing paranoia on the subject.
                        "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003

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                        • #162
                          That's exactly what Dino implied. I don't know which "Democratic leader" Plato was talking about, but it sure sounds like the Clyburn comment. If it's not this one, I'd like Plato to show us what he was referring to.
                          "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                          -Bokonon

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                          • #163
                            Originally posted by Ramo
                            That's exactly what Dino implied. I don't know which "Democratic leader" Plato was talking about, but it sure sounds like the Clyburn comment. If it's not this one, I'd like Plato to show us what he was referring to.
                            It was...just couldn't remember his name off hand.


                            (Thanks Dino)
                            "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003

                            Comment

                            • #164
                              I think you are making it to simplistic. It should be obvious that the report will be very heavily scruitinized by everyone for factual accuracy. If it is the conclusion of the General "on the ground" that the surge is working and the facts are supported, then why would you not accept this report.

                              Saying that it is wrong just because the White House writes it is nearing paranoia on the subject.
                              Why should I automatically accept everything the "General on the ground" says? And I didn't say that it is "wrong just because the WH writes it," I was saying that this diminishes the credibility of the report.

                              The disagreement by and large is not about the basic facts (though there are those). We already know those. See the Progress report where the Iraqis failed every political benchmark. The disagreement is over the recommendations made based on those facts.

                              And the idea that we should be pretending that Crocker and Petraeus are disinterested, objective observers who have nothing personally invested in the current strategy is absurd.
                              Last edited by Ramo; August 23, 2007, 12:33.
                              "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                              -Bokonon

                              Comment

                              • #165
                                It was...just couldn't remember his name off hand.
                                So are you still going to call Clyburn a traitor, or do you understand how you're completely wrong?
                                "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                                -Bokonon

                                Comment

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