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  • #46
    Iraqis doing just fine:

    British losses soar as they prepare to leave Basra city
    By Patrick Cockburn
    Published: 10 August 2007

    Two more British soldiers were killed in southern Iraq yesterday, raising the death toll in the UK's least successful military campaign since Suez in 1956. In both cases the British casualties were low but British forces wholly failed to achieve their objectives.

    Two Irish Guardsman were killed and two were seriously wounded in the early hours of yesterday when their convoy was hit by a roadside bomb near the Rumaila oilfields west of Basra. The deaths bring to 168 the number of British personnel who have died in Iraq since the invasion in 2003.

    British losses have increased as they prepare to abandon their last base in Basra city and retreat to their frequently attacked air base on the outskirts of the city. Here the contingent of 5,500 troops has been hit by mortars and rockets more than 600 times in the past four months.

    "Basra's residents and militiamen view this not as an orderly withdrawal but rather as an ignominious defeat," according to a report by the Brussels-based International Crisis Group (ICG) on Basra published in June. "Today, the city is controlled by militias, seemingly more powerful and unconstrained than before."

    British officials have privately echoed American claims that the Shia militias in Basra and in the rest of Iraq are being manipulated and supplied by Iran. But the three main Shia groupings in Basra, the Mehdi Army, the Badr Organisation and Fadhila, would control most of southern Iraq with or without Iranian aid.

    "The British have basically been defeated in the south," a senior US intelligence official was quoted as saying in Baghdad. The final deterioration of the British position has become evident since the end of Operation Sinbad between September 2006 and March 2007 which sought to curb the militias and strengthen security in Basra. But from March on the militias have reasserted their hold on the city and killed 30 British soldiers between April and July, making it the deadliest period for British forces at any time since 2003.

    The increase in attacks may be because the militias see the British as being on the run, but also because of the growing military friction between the Shia militiamen and the occupation forces in general.

    Lt-Gen Raymond Odierno, the US deputy commander in Iraq, says Shia militants were responsible for 73 per cent of the attacks that killed or wounded American soldiers in Baghdad in July. The increase in Shia attacks on British personnel may be part of the same pattern.

    The US has been seeking to blame the escalation of Shia militia attacks on Iran but it is more likely that they are the result of growing frustration of the Shia, who make up 60 per cent of the Iraqi population, at what they see as increasing US support for the Sunni.

    The Pentagon and White House have launched a campaign to persuade the media that Iran's provision of sophisticated shaped charges is a decisive factor in the war and is causing numerous US casualties. The accusation is denied by Iran and, even if true, the provision of a single type of explosive device is unlikely to be of critical significance in such a complex struggle.

    British forces have already withdrawn from three of the four provinces in southern Iraq saying they are turning over security to Iraqi government authority. But police and army in Basra and southern Iraq are largely under the control of militias.

    The outlook for the two million people in Basra, Iraq's second largest city, is not good. According to the ICG report, violence in the city has little to do with sectarianism or anti-occupation resistance but involves "the systematic misuse of official institutions, political assassinations, tribal vendettas, neighbourhood vigilantism... together with the rise of criminal mafias that increasingly intermingle with political actors."
    "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
    -Bokonon

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    • #47
      The surge will be a military success, and a political catastrophe.

      It was designed to buy time so that the Iraqis could build-up their Unity government. Instead, the various factions are hunkering down and getting ready for the upcoming, all-out civil war.

      Comment


      • #48
        They're leaving Basra right now.
        Phased, there will be British forces there for awhile.

        If by doing just fine, you mean being run by the Shia militias
        And the police force of Boston is predominately Irish. So what? I have loyalties to my church and family, does that mean I am corrupt?

        Imagine that, the local government workers in an area almost entirely Shia are predominately Shia And it is funny that any community banding together to deter crime and predatory violence for their physical and economic security is somehow militia. What to we call it when people do that here? Interesting enough isn't the active participation by a people to secure their own well being in conjuction with occupation forces one of the hallmarks of counter insurgency success?

        Yeah, yada yada they must all be death squad right?

        Your standards for success are impossible, which is convenient for someone predicting failure. You are the one with a naive view, a view of where Iraq should somehow achieve western equivalency instantaneously and anything less is a failure.

        The simple fact is despite all your attempts to muddy the issue Iraqi provinces under Iraqi control are relatively peaceful and their caretakers are working for the people instead of against.
        "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

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        • #49
          Phased, there will be British forces there for awhile.
          They're about to leave their last base in the city. See the above article.

          And the police force of Boston is predominately Irish. So what? I have loyalties to my church and family, does that mean I am corrupt?

          Imagine that, the local government workers in an area almost entirely Shia are predominately Shia
          I must have missed the news where the Boston police is going around killing non-Catholics and non-Irish. We have had paramilitary forces fighting for the supremacy of a certain sectarian group take over civilian governments in some parts of the country in the past. I forget what they were called. I think it started with a K...

          And I can't believe you dedicated three sentences to less relevant part of the phrase "Shia militia." You know your argument's pretty bad off when you have to do something like that.

          And it is funny that any community banding together to deter crime and predatory violence for their physical and economic security is somehow militia. What to we call it when people do that here? Interesting enough isn't the active participation by a people to secure their own well being in conjuction with occupation forces one of the hallmarks of counter insurgency success?

          Yeah, yada yada they must all be death squad right?

          I can't believe that you're arguing that the militias are a benign force. We're not talking neighborhood watch, but the Mahdi Army and the Badr Brigade. These are violent thugs. Your argument is completely, utterly divorced from reality. Do we really have to discuss the problems with these groups? Really?

          If you think a country being run by a bunch of sectarian militias constantly fighting each other and killing civilians constitutes a great success, what doesn't?
          "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
          -Bokonon

          Comment


          • #50
            The simple fact is despite all your attempts to muddy the issue Iraqi provinces under Iraqi control are relatively peaceful and their caretakers are working for the people instead of against.
            From the article:
            The outlook for the two million people in Basra, Iraq's second largest city, is not good. According to the ICG report, violence in the city has little to do with sectarianism or anti-occupation resistance but involves "the systematic misuse of official institutions, political assassinations, tribal vendettas, neighbourhood vigilantism... together with the rise of criminal mafias that increasingly intermingle with political actors."
            But this is like the Arab model or something like that. They can't understand Western ideas like democracy or rule of law.
            "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
            -Bokonon

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Ramo



              What a laughably naive view of Iraq.
              What a stupid an uninformed comment!


              Do you read anything current on how the Iraqi army is being built or do you just listen to Harry and Nancy rehashing year old news?



              Somethings you say have some good cred...some things are simply laughable.
              "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Ramo


                But this is like the Arab model or something like that. They can't understand Western ideas like democracy or rule of law.
                This one I'll give you a

                QFT

                "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Zkribbler
                  The surge will be a military success, and a political catastrophe.

                  It was designed to buy time so that the Iraqis could build-up their Unity government. Instead, the various factions are hunkering down and getting ready for the upcoming, all-out civil war.
                  This is, sadly, what looks likely to me as well.
                  "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003

                  Comment


                  • #54

                    Do you read anything current on how the Iraqi army is being built or do you just listen to Harry and Nancy rehashing year old news?


                    I actually don't get my news from partisan propaganda outlets. You should try it. See the Patrick Cockburn piece I posted above, for instance:
                    British forces have already withdrawn from three of the four provinces in southern Iraq saying they are turning over security to Iraqi government authority. But police and army in Basra and southern Iraq are largely under the control of militias.


                    Anyone who pays the least bit attention to the situation knows that the army and particularly the police are infested with militia loyalties. To say otherwise demands a great deal of ignorance. Course after the nonsense you posted in the last Iraq thread, I'm not really surprised...
                    Last edited by Ramo; August 21, 2007, 15:39.
                    "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                    -Bokonon

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      This one I'll give you a

                      QFT


                      This is what I don't get about right wingers on Iraq. They buy into the Orientalist idea that Arabs/Muslims are like little children who can't do anything right, but at the same time believe that Iraq will go swimmingly despite all evidence to the contrary.
                      "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                      -Bokonon

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Ramo
                        Anyone who pays the least bit attention
                        A good rule of thumb when making arguments is not to use phrases like this. Normally, this is an indication that what ever comes after it is pure bull****, or at least is correct only by chance.
                        I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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                        • #57
                          This is coming from the guy who judged the success of the surge by common wisdom in the DC papers you read? Or hasn't posted anything of substance, much less responding to my arguments.

                          Are you really trying to dispute the idea that large parts of the army and particularly the police are loyal to sectarian militias?
                          "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                          -Bokonon

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Ramo, I will not make an arguement for or against the success of the surge in Iraq, but I give that article you posted no credibility. The reason is that the author has convieniently sprinkled in his own opinions and assessments. As a rule, I dismiss any news article that isn't 100% fact only. Just a couple examples:

                            "The US has been seeking to blame the escalation of Shia militia attacks on Iran but it is more likely that they are the result of growing frustration of the Shia, who make up 60 per cent of the Iraqi population, at what they see as increasing US support for the Sunni."

                            "The accusation is denied by Iran and, even if true, the provision of a single type of explosive device is unlikely to be of critical significance in such a complex struggle."

                            These are assesments at best, not proven facts. I would give the article more credibility if the author stated where these assesments came from instead of stating them as if he is making the conclusions himself.
                            EViiiiiiL!!! - Mermaid Man

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                            • #59
                              Ramo: It's tough to know for certain.
                              I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Ramo and Patroklos,

                                You both speak as if you are quite knowledgable about the situation in Iraq. I would be interested in hearing both your credentials and where you get your information.
                                EViiiiiiL!!! - Mermaid Man

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