It Seems All Is Not Lost, Despite What Some Say

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly


You and Plato make the same point. It's a reasonable point: if we really mean to do this, we need a larger army.

Unfortunately, that's not going to happen; now that army service = definitely headed to the hot zone, and now that the economy is such that everyone can get a job (usually a crappy job, to be sure, but it's still better than being maimed), the volunteer forces just ain't cutting it. Even as the army lowers their standards -- less education, lower IQ's, looking the other way regarding psychological problems -- they still can't make quota.

Solution: a draft. Believe me, nothing would make me happier than seeing the Bush administration push for that.

There are many finbancial incentives that could also be brought to bear if they truly wanted to increase the size of the force. "Stop Loss" orders could be greatly expanded. There are other ways than a draft that would certainly be explored first.

However, I believe that the main hurdle to increasing the size of the armed forces is Administration arrogance. Rummy's minimal force needed theories are still haunting the halls of the Pentagon. Not to mention that the current Congress is unlikely to authorize the additional money to add another division or two.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Patroklos

The video gamers understanding of the world

Perfect way to prove my point G

Even though this drew a laugh from GePap, I believe that this is a spot on comment Patroklos.

GePap, I must say that if your knowledge of military matters approached your understanding of international political relationships then there could be quite some debates on the military. Sadly, this is not the case.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by PLATO
The US does not need to fear a professional army turning on it in the least. It simply needs one that will have the ability to secure and control the country.

No, what they need to fear is the "professional" army turning on the Iraqi people . . . when they don't run away from combat, that is.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


No, what they need to fear is the "professional" army turning on the Iraqi people . . . when they don't run away from combat, that is.

Yes, I agree. Hence the reason that such care and time in building the Officer Core is being taken. The units that are running in combat are not the first teir units obviously and further reason for needing to stay long enough to make sure that a capable and truly professional army is created.

It is interesting that you make a point that clearly shows that the coalition should remain in Iraq, along with the NATO trainers, long enough to secure the safety of the Iraqi people.

[chequita guevara]

Given the history of armies trained by the U.S., I'd say that a military coup or massive repression is a certainty.

[Ben Kenobi]

Unfortunately, that's not going to happen; now that army service = definitely headed to the hot zone, and now that the economy is such that everyone can get a job (usually a crappy job, to be sure, but it's still better than being maimed), the volunteer forces just ain't cutting it.

If I wanted to have some meaning in my life, am I going to find it in a 9-5 job or in serving with the Armed Forces? The problem with conscription is that it destroys the morale of the Army as a professional force.

Even as the army lowers their standards -- less education, lower IQ's, looking the other way regarding psychological problems -- they still can't make quota.

Recruitment and morale is very high.

Solution: a draft. Believe me, nothing would make me happier than seeing the Bush administration push for that.

Which is why the democrats always threaten one. They don't want a draft because it will help win the war, but that it will turn public opinion against the war.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
If I wanted to have some meaning in my life, am I going to find it in a 9-5 job or in serving with the Armed Forces? The problem with conscription is that it destroys the morale of the Army as a professional force.

Right. That's why morale is so low in the "unprofessional" militaries of, say, Israel. And Turkey. And, heck, Singapore. And it's why morale was so low in the US military during, say, World War II.

Try again, Ben.

And don't get me wrong: I'm opposed to a draft, as are most Americans. That's exactly why I want to see Bush propose it.

Recruitment and morale is very high.

Recruitment is on a razor's edge. It was on track for the year until this summer; then numbers started falling -- and worse, started falling in the very months (June-August) the army counts on to yeild its biggest numbers. As for morale, I think soldiers are proud to be soldiers, as they should be -- but I've talked to a lot of guys who've done 2 and even 3 Iraq tours, and they're not exactly jumping for joy about it.

Which is why the democrats always threaten one. They don't want a draft because it will help win the war, but that it will turn public opinion against the war.

Of course! Though the Dems don't need any help turning public opinion against the war at this point. But it's also a way of noting that the people dying for this war are disproportionately poor and non-white, while the cheerleaders for it are disproportionately well-educated, well-heeled -- the OP article authors very much included.

[Ben Kenobi]

Right. That's why morale is so low in the "unprofessional" militaries of, say, Israel. And Turkey. And, heck, Singapore. And it's why morale was so low in the US military during, say, World War II.

Among those who are volunteers, their morale drops when conscription is instituted.

And don't get me wrong: I'm opposed to a draft, as are most Americans. That's exactly why I want to see Bush propose it.

If the draft was so healthy for the war, why then would you propose it? Wouldn't it make Bush look good?

[Ben Kenobi]

Of course! Though the Dems don't need any help turning public opinion against the war at this point. But it's also a way of noting that the people dying for this war are disproportionately poor and non-white, while the cheerleaders for it are disproportionately well-educated, well-heeled -- the OP article authors very much included.

Which is a credit since they are volunteering to defend their country.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe


Not so much I know my own hackery and revel in using the tactics of others on this board.

Sad excuse for behaving exactly as you criticise others for doing so.



There's a word for that...

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

If I wanted to have some meaning in my life, am I going to find it in a 9-5 job or in serving with the Armed Forces? The problem with conscription is that it destroys the morale of the Army as a professional force.

It had failed to do so in the British army from 1914-1918.

By the end of the First World War, the British army (conscripted, volunteer and professional) was both highly trained and highly motivated.

Among those who are volunteers, their morale drops when conscription is instituted.

Fine words butter no parsnips. Proof of this please.



The U.S.A. and conscription in World War One:

The U.S. Congress approved conscription on 18 May 1917; reproduced below is the text of President Woodrow Wilson's conscription proclamation issued ten days later formally implementing the policy.

Although many anticipated that implementing conscription would result in civil disturbance in practice it was received calmly and indeed with widespread approval.

http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/usconscription_wilson.htm

Samuel Gompers on why they were fighting:

At the call of this autocrat, His Imperial Majesty the Emperor of Germany, men were set at attack, and we found that these very men were clutching at each other's throats and seeking each other's destruction...

The United States has declared that she can no longer live in safety when there is stalking throughout the earth this thunderous machine of murder. The United States authoritatively has declared that peace is desirable and should be brought about, but that peace is impossible so long as life and liberty are challenged and menaced.

The Republic of the United States has cast her lot with the Allied countries fighting against the greatest military machine ever erected in the history of the world.

I am made ill when I see or hear any one suffering the slightest pain or anguish, and yet I hold that it is essential that the sacrifice must be made that humanity shall never again be cursed by a war such as the one which has been thrust upon us.

'Source Records of the Great War', Vol. V, ed. Charles F. Horne, National Alumni 1923

[Patroklos]

But it's also a way of noting that the people dying for this war are disproportionately poor and non-white

And the hackery continues

You do realize the exact opposite of this is true, right?

http://www.deathsiniraq.com/casualties-race.html

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by molly bloom


Sad excuse for behaving exactly as you criticise others for doing so.



There's a word for that...

Yup.. and the word be.... Molly.

The difference is I understand what I am doing and am fine with it. (Mocking it as it were.) You apparently are not.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by Patroklos


And the hackery continues

You do realize the exact opposite of this is true, right?

http://www.deathsiniraq.com/casualties-race.html

Interesting chart; the military itself, though, acknowledges that African-Americans are proportionally overrepresented in the armed services. And that says nothing about class, which is the real issue.

[Patroklos]

So they are disproportionaly over represented in the army, yet as a percentage still have fewer casualties than their makeup in the national population.

Seems race is not the issue.

And that says nothing about class, which is the real issue.

It’s the real issue since the first one didn't work out for you. However, given that half your assertion is a complete fallacy, why not support your other one.

And so we have perspective, let’s correlate that with time in service as well.