Ban alcohol, ban porn, they can't handle it, damn immature teenag.... oh, Aborigines

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Heresson
35-9

Since I haven't stated that it was, I feel no need to prove it.

Some interesting observations on Polish-Jewish relations and politics in pre-1939 Poland:

Pilsudski had certainly been guilty of ordering illegal arrests and ill-treatment of his opponents - probably including a couple of secret murders.

Encouraged, however, by the example of more 'progressive' states, his successors shed his scruples and set up a concentration camp...

...the aim was not extermination but intimidation of political opponents, and, seizing the opportunity, of economic 'criminals'- mostly Jews whose crime consisted of taking money abroad without permission (which became necessary in the 1930s), but whose guilt was 'known' only to the police but could not be proven.

The inmates were imprisoned without trial.

The staff consisted of policemen who had a record of admonishments for assaulting prisoners, and was commanded by a sadistic colonel, Kostek-Biernacki.

S. Andreski 'Poland'

'Fascism In Europe', edited by S. J. Woolf

Poland's treatment of other minorities (whose rights were theoretically guaranteed on Poland's independence post-1919):

The Poles set out to 'polonise' the Ukrainians without scruple, so that fierce opposition was aroused which in turn led to brutal military suppression in 1930, the so-called 'pacification of the Ukraine'.

'Democracy Breaks Down In Poland, 1924-1932' from 'Europe Of The Dictators', by Elizabeth Wiskemann

Back to the Polish Jews:

Pogroms marked the inauguration of Poland's independence and were a recurring phenomenon in the 20 years of independent Poland.

Uinversities and professional schools introduced a 'numerus clausus' system for Polish Jews.

The government's growing control of economic life was accompanied by discriminatory regulations and restrictive practices that succeeded in impoverishing the Jewish community.

In 1938 laws were enacted withdrawing Polish citizenship from Jews resident abroad.

'Jews In Pre-War Poland' from 'The War Against The Jews, 1933-45' by Lucy Dawidowicz.

The Church our fortress and our strength:

....the Jews are committing frauds and dealing in white slavery.

Cardinal Hlond, 1934 (quoted in Ezra Mendelsohn's 'The Jews Of East Central Europe Between The World Wars').

More recent sacred utterings:

(Jews should not) '...talk to us from the position of a people raised above all others...'

(should not)'...dictate conditions that are impossible to fulfill.'

'...a squad of 7 Jews from New York launched attacks on the convent at Auschwitz...'

'...Your (International Jewry's!) power lies in the mass media that are easily at your disposal in many countries. Let them not serve to spread anti-Polish feeling.'

Cardinal Jozef Glemp, Czestochowa, August 2th 1989

OMIGOD! It's the International Zionist Conspiracy again!

No one ever suspects ZOG working behind the scenes.

So much for Nostra Aetate,eh ?

I love the way Glemp drags Polish-Jewish relations kicking and screaming into the 17th Century.... 'Polak-katolik' indeed, it would seem, and not just to Dmowski.

[Heresson]

Some interesting observations on Polish-Jewish relations and politics in pre-1939 Poland:

bah, people conducting illegal interests are put into prison. Some are Jews. An outrage indeed.
It is a biased text, use of words concentration camp, especially in jewish context, suggests parallel to Germany, which is feeble.

'Democracy Breaks Down In Poland, 1924-1932' from 'Europe Of The Dictators', by Elizabeth Wiskemann

Does it have anything to do with what we are discussing? No.
Also, it depended on particular voivode's attitude. Ukrainians had parliamentary repesentation. Some Ukrainians didn't recognise polish state, and tried to break away from it. It is usual to fight with such tendencies, though, of course, too harsh means were often used. Nothing compared with what Ukrainians did during ww2 to Poles, though.

'Jews In Pre-War Poland' from 'The War Against The Jews, 1933-45' by Lucy Dawidowicz.

Allegations of pogroms were mostly found untrue by american comission. Jews, as any other nationality, if suffers during a war, treat it as attack on themselves.

Numerus clausus appeared only in some universities, not without much opposition, and in post-Pilduski's period. It was used in many states, including USA, too.
And while I find it wrong, only slightly more than affirmative politics of another kinds - of blacks in USA, of women in Sweden or Poland, etc.

Please, prove polish gouverment's discriminatory actions and that its goal was impoverishment of Jews

The Church our fortress and our strength:

Well, some surely did. Also, I'd like this quote in a non-jewish source. Still, some anti-jewish bias is not something really horrible if it doesn't lead to anything.

Cardinal Jozef Glemp, Czestochowa, August 2th 1989

he had some right. Jews are acting selfishly, like other nations, or even more, but their demands are often presented as ultimatum, if you don't agree, you're an antisemite. Reaction was too harsh, but I see no reason why a monastery could be an offence to Jews apart from hatred towards other religions and nationalities.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Heresson

bah, people conducting illegal interests are put into prison. Some are Jews. An outrage indeed.

Anything gets excused by you if Poles do it and Jews are the victims, eh ?

What you say:

Some are Jews.

What was stated:

mostly Jews

What you say:

An outrage indeed.

What we're talking about:

but intimidation of political opponents,

Jews whose crime consisted of taking money abroad without permission but whose guilt was 'known' only to the police but could not be proven.

The inmates were imprisoned without trial.

What you say:

It is a biased text, use of words concentration camp, especially in jewish context, suggests parallel to Germany

A comparison explicitly ruled out:

his successors shed his scruples and set up a concentration camp...

...the aim was not extermination

On the other hand, some prisoners of the Nazis did at least get a trial.

What you say:

Does it have anything to do with what we are discussing?

Err, yes- treatment of ethnic minorities and citizens whose race or culture may not be the same as that of the ruling elite.

Nothing compared with what Ukrainians did during ww2 to Poles, though.

How predictable- it doesn't matter how many Ukrainians were mistreated by the Poles in the pre-war period, the Ukrainians were far worse in wartime !

Yeah, nobody suffered like the Poles.

Allegations of pogroms were mostly found untrue by american comission.

Really. Show us the proof then...

Jews, as any other nationality, if suffers during a war, treat it as attack on themselves.

A little difficult to see how else one could describe antisemitic pogroms. If Jews are attacked for being Jewish, how else should they see it ?

Numerus clausus appeared only in some universities

Oh that's fine then.

As long as Jews are being discriminated against in only 'some' universities and not all of them.

Please, prove polish gouverment's discriminatory actions

? You did read this (apparently...):

..prisoners... mostly Jews...

Jews whose crime consisted of taking money abroad without permission but whose guilt was 'known' only to the police but could not be proven.

The inmates were imprisoned without trial.

Ho hum.

Also, I'd like this quote in a non-jewish source.

Yeah, I'd like your defence of Poland from someone not Polish.

I've provided quotes, names, references and dates.

You've misinterpreted or misread what I've written, and posted this as a defence:

Allegations of pogroms were mostly found untrue by american comission.

No date, no name of the alleged commission, under whose auspices it was set up... I suppose we simply have differing standards for 'proof', eh ?

but I see no reason why a monastery could be an offence to Jews apart from hatred towards other religions and nationalities.

No, I can't imagine why a Roman Catholic religious centre at an extermination camp which was set up to kill large numbers of Jews should be at all offensive.

Especially not given the Roman Catholic Church's wonderful record on combatting antisemitism in Poland and elsewhere, especially during the period 1939-1945.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by molly bloom


Anything gets excused by you if Poles do it and Jews are the victims, eh ?

A person put into jail is not a victim, unless he was put there without a reason... a thing you fail to prove.

What you say:

What was stated:

Jews, as you know, were very influential in polish economy, many jobs were dominated by them. if there was an action against lawyers, it would be mostly Jews in prisons as well.
If there were others put into jail as well, it likely wasn't directed against Jews per se.

What you say:



What we're talking about:

oh, but the crime is that they were (allegedly) put into prison without a trial, not that they were put into prison
and they were Jews.

What you say:



A comparison explicitly ruled out:

No it does not exclude comparison.

On the other hand, some prisoners of the Nazis did at least get a trial.

Especially since here, you're trying to prove polish authorities were actually worse than nazis...

What you say:

Err, yes- treatment of ethnic minorities and citizens whose race or culture may not be the same as that of the ruling elite.

in the middle of a discussion about Jews you point to ukrainian question...

How predictable- it doesn't matter how many Ukrainians were mistreated by the Poles in the pre-war period, the Ukrainians were far worse in wartime !

Yeah, nobody suffered like the Poles.

Indeed. And you're being silly, as usual. I did condemn these actions, I am puting them into proper context, though. Ukrainians were fighting against Poland, engaging in acts of terror. That's why there were pacifications etc. And I believe ethnical clearsings on a big scale are worse than pacifications of a couple of villages. I guess you don't.

Really. Show us the proof then...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgenthau_Report

A little difficult to see how else one could describe antisemitic pogroms. If Jews are attacked for being Jewish, how else should they see it ?

But you have to prove they were attacked for being jewish, not because they were fighting on soviet side, because they lived in a quarter/region where the fights were taking place, or because they were rich.

As long as Jews are being discriminated against in only 'some' universities and not all of them.

so all = a few for you?
You can't say "universities" introduced numerus clausus without saying that it only applied to some of them, because it suggests it was a general policy, which it was not.

? You did read this (apparently...):

you're dumber than I thought.
Even if it was an antisemitic action, which you still have to prove, it would be one... limited and doubtful, at that.

Yeah, I'd like your defence of Poland from someone not Polish.

I'm not polish. I'm ukrainian-jewish-armenian

No date, no name of the alleged commission, under whose auspices it was set up... I suppose we simply have differing standards for 'proof', eh ?

given already.
And I have no time to waste for the likes of you to do searches.

No, I can't imagine why a Roman Catholic religious centre at an extermination camp which was set up to kill large numbers of Jews should be at all offensive.

Especially not given the Roman Catholic Church's wonderful record on combatting antisemitism in Poland and elsewhere, especially during the period 1939-1945.

Please, explain, how is it offensive. Again, pope Pius XII was praised by Jews for his stance. And what horrible antisemitic actions were done in Poland by RCC against Jews?

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Heresson

A person put into jail is not a victim, unless he was put there without a reason...

Which they were, unless of course you believe that a different standard of justice should have existed for only Polish Jews:

mostly Jews... ...whose guilt was 'known' only to the police but could not be proven.

The inmates were imprisoned without trial.

How convenient.

a thing you fail to prove.

? I don't know how plainer I can make it- most of those imprisoned without trial and without any evidence were Polish Jews.

"some" includes "mostly".

No, not in English it doesn't.

Mostly has a different weight- it means the majority of those imprisoned.

Thus the detention without trial policy had an antisemitic slant.

Jews, as you know, were very influential in polish economy, many jobs were dominated by them. if there was an action against lawyers, it would be mostly Jews in prisons as well.

Since you're just guessing at the professions of those who were imprisoned, we can safely ignore this excuse too.

oh, but the crime is that they were (allegedly) put into prison without a trial, not that they were put into prison

?

Most of the prisoners were Jewish. They were imprisoned without trial and without any substantive evidence.

Again, how difficult is this to understand ?

No it does not exclude comparison.

Yes it does. The detention camps used by the British in South Africa during the Boer War were called concentration camps.

The Polish concentration camp was not, REPEAT NOT, an extermination camp like Auschwitz.

A point which is expressly made clear in the text I quoted.

Too bad that the pre-war Polish regime had the same disrespect for civil liberties and the law as had the Nazis.

Especially since here, you're trying to prove polish authorities were actually worse than nazis...

No, I'm just trying to wind you up. I hope it succeeded.

in the middle of a discussion about Jews you point to ukrainian question...

The thread (in case you had forgotten) is not about Jews, nor was my argument solely restricted to Poland's treatment of its Jewish population.

Good to see that the Polish government could spread its ethnic discrimination about though.

Wouldn't want the Jews to feel too privileged...

And you're being silly, as usual.

When argument fails you, fall back on personal attacks, eh?

You did it in the art thread, you do it with your infantile signature.

It says more about you than it does about me...

Now let's see- Polish pogroms- oh, you offer Wiki as 'proof'.

Sorry, you'll have to do better than that.

Still as the article you linked to states:

Morgenthau was selected for the job precisely because he was known to be sympathetic to Poland, and his report largely exculpated the Polish government, exactly as expected.

But you have to prove they were attacked for being jewish, not because they were fighting on soviet side,

Ah yes, the 'convenient' Polish Jews=Soviets or Communists excuse.

because they lived in a quarter/region where the fights were taking place

Uh huh. Just more casualties of war, who didn't happen to be Roman Catholic, but were still in the wrong place.

or because they were rich

And not because they were suspected of desecrating the host, or using Christian boys' blood to bake matzos too ?

Exactly how many things am I meant to prove the Polish Jews weren't before we're supposed to believe they were attacked because they were Jewish ?

Not lawyers, not Communists, not Russophiles, not in a war zone, not 'rich', not businessmen...

Perhaps you could just furnish me with a list.

You can't say "universities" introduced numerus clausus without saying that it only applied to some of them, because it suggests it was a general policy, which it was not.

Yes I can, because unlike you I seme to understand how the English language operates.

'Mostly' is not contained within 'some', and 'universities' does not mean or imply 'all universities'.

If I'd meant 'all universities' then I would have said it.

Your inaccurate quibble is not disproving in any way that those universities instituted an antisemitic policy.

you're dumber than I thought.

Try to keep your irrelevant and erroneous personal remarks about my intelligence to a minimum, especially in a thread where you appear to have trouble understanding the language being used.

Even if it was an antisemitic action, which you still have to prove

So if it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, and flies like a duck, in Poland it's an auroch.

Yes, tout compris.

I'm not polish.

Righty ho.

I'm ukrainian-jewish-armenian

Whereas to me your ethnicity is irrelevant, your nationality is not.

I'm afraid the U.N. and E.U. are unaware of the existence of Ukrarmjewia....

given already.

Pleae, don't act like you're being generous or genuine.

This was only after I pointed out that you hadn't bothered to offer any 'proof' for your defence, and then when you do, it's a link to Wiki.

Why am I surprised ? Oh wait, I'm not.

And I have no time to waste for the likes of you to do searches.

But you do have the time for the likes of me to make replies full of childish remarks and personal attacks...hmm.

Seems I have different standards.

Please, explain, how is it offensive.

Why bother ?

I'll only get more of your infantile remarks and a display of an inability to understand English.

As you so petulantly put it:

I have no (more) time to waste for the likes of you

[Heresson]

Originally posted by molly bloom

Which they were, unless of course you believe that a different standard of justice should have existed for only Polish Jews:

Polish Jews only...
Again, for molly, "mostly Jews" = "Jews only"

? I don't know how plainer I can make it- most of those imprisoned without trial and without any evidence were Polish Jews.

most, so not only.

Mostly has a different weight- it means the majority of those imprisoned.

"some" of 10
may be
9
or
2

Thus the detention without trial policy had an antisemitic slant.

no, since not only Jews were affected, and jewish craftsmen, shoppers, bankers etc were relatively more numerable than polish

Since you're just guessing at the professions of those who were imprisoned, we can safely ignore this excuse too.

what were they, then?

A point which is expressly made clear in the text I quoted.

not enough, taking into account that is a touchy matter.

Too bad that the pre-war Polish regime had the same disrespect for civil liberties and the law as had the Nazis.

again you compare what can't be compared. I'm afraid nazis were a tiny bit worse in that respect.

When argument fails you, fall back on personal attacks, eh?

You can't reason with someone so stubborn, prejudiced and offensive as you.

Still as the article you linked to states:

It is a quote of a critic of Morgenthau. Still, Morgenthau was jewish, and there is nothing to back Morgenthau's or the gouverment's alleged pro-polish bias with.

Ah yes, the 'convenient' Polish Jews=Soviets or Communists excuse.

No stereotype appears without a reason. Polish communists were very often of jewish origin, f.e. Luksemburg, Minc, Berman...

Uh huh. Just more casualties of war, who didn't happen to be Roman Catholic, but were still in the wrong place.

As if none roman-catholics (or greek-catholics, or orthodox) were hurt during this crisis...

And not because they were suspected of desecrating the host, or using Christian boys' blood to bake matzos too ?

Oh, such cases were present, obviously, like Kielce after the war. I don't know if they were present during this war, though.

Exactly how many things am I meant to prove the Polish Jews weren't before we're supposed to believe they were attacked because they were Jewish ?

Not lawyers, not Communists, not Russophiles, not in a war zone, not 'rich', not businessmen...

Lawyers were largely Jews. Jews were very numerable in communist movement, as well as in economy. Entire Poland was a war zone, but especially east to Vistula. If you check maps, that's where most of polish Jews lived.

Your inaccurate quibble is not disproving in any way that those universities instituted an antisemitic policy.

I never tried to disprove some universities did.
I only claimed that it is not much worse than affirmative policy in other cases.

I'm afraid the U.N. and E.U. are unaware of the existence of Ukrarmjewia....

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Heresson

Polish Jews only...
Again, for molly, "mostly Jews" = "Jews only"

No, that is obviously not the case. I'm glad you find your inability to understand English so amusing.

It affords me some small pleasure too.

most, so not only.

I'll explain it again, because you are clearly experiencing some kind of cognitive dysfunction.

'Some' does not mean 'mostly'. 'Mostly' does not mean 'all' or 'only'.

Feel free to imbibe this lesson in basic English, inwardly dwell upon it and try to make good use of it.

It would prevent stupid debating points like this:

"some" of 10
may be
9
or
2

Once more, lexically simplified:

mostly: largely: in large part; mainly or chiefly.

some: some(a): quantifier; used with either mass nouns or plural count nouns to indicate an unspecified number or quantity.

no, since not only Jews were affected, and jewish craftsmen, shoppers, bankers etc were relatively more numerable than polish

Oh dear. Why imprison more Jews than non-Jews ? Why focus on trades or businesses where Jews were more numerous ?

Why remove Polish citizenship from only Polish Jews resident abroad ?

Because the Polish regime wanted the Polish Jews to feel like a truly chosen people, no doubt...

what were they, then?

You were the one implying that the Polish Jews imprisoned belonged to certain professions, businesses or trades.

The onus is on you to prove it, not me.

not enough, taking into account that is a touchy matter.

Not enough for you apparently, but given the difficulty evinced understanding the difference between simple words such as 'mostly' and 'some', I hardly give this whine any great value.

The point is made clear- it was a concentration camp, not an extermination camp. A concentration camp, moreover, inspired by the examples of those set up in Italy and Germany for undesirables/political opponents of those regimes.

again you compare what can't be compared.

Rot.

The Polish government on independence gave explicit assurances that the rights of ethnic/cultural/religious minorities would be respected. They were not, and in fact this undertaking to protect minorities was explicitly repudiated in September 1934.

You can't reason with someone so stubborn, prejudiced and offensive as you.

And thus you prove my point:

When argument fails you, fall back on personal attacks, eh?

Well done!

It is a quote of a critic of Morgenthau.

And ? So why should we believe the article in Wiki was not written by a Polish admirer of Morgenthau's ?

Polish communists were very often of jewish origin, f.e. Luksemburg, Minc, Berman...

And Rosa Luxemburg had been living in Germany, and was dead...

As if none roman-catholics (or greek-catholics, or orthodox) were hurt during this crisis...

Did the Polish government target Roman Catholic Poles to the same degree ? Not to my knowledge.

The Nazi actions in Poland were abominable, but the Einsatzgruppen had instructions to eliminate Jews outright.

Oh, such cases were present, obviously, like Kielce after the war. I don't know if they were present during this war, though.

Peasant folklore and superstition died out in pre-1939 to reappear post-1945 ? Pull the other one.

Lawyers were largely Jews. Jews were very numerable in communist movement, as well as in economy. Entire Poland was a war zone, but especially east to Vistula.

No facts, no figures, just assertions. The usual.

I never tried to disprove some universities did.

You implied that I said 'all universities' when in fact I did not.

I only claimed that it is not much worse than affirmative policy in other cases.

So if some universities in the U.S.A. were antisemitic then somehow that didn't make the Polish universities' behaviour that reprehensible ?

That's known as the 'You too' (tu quoque) defence in philosophy and law.

It doesn't work in this instance- the 'numerus clausus' policy brought in by the Polish universities (and the professional bodies) was aimed at Jews- thus it was antisemitic.