Thank you G-D! Immigration reform bill is pulled....

[lord of the mark]

I thought the law was a pretty decent compromise.


Can someone like Ramo answer me this though? Why is favoring skills something the left dislikes? Shouldnt the left be concerned about income distribution here, and helping poor and working class US citizens more than upper middle class US citizens? Doesnt allowing in unskilled folks, and keeping out skilled workers and professionals, hurt the weakest elements in our society? Wouldnt it be more progressive to keep out the unskilled, and therefore attempt to raise unskilled wages, but let in the skilled, esp in those fields in most demand? Mickey Kaus at Slate is the only one I know forcefully making this argument.

Is it that unskilled Americans are less organized/unionized than skilled workers? Is it the netroots folks with their class base among angry techies?

[Dinner]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Just as I believe in 20 years you and DanS will be trumpeting yet another grand compromise designed to solve the problem of illegal immigration.

I don't propose solving anything or at least not a permanent solution. People are going to migrate to where there is work and if the government refuses to issue enough legal visas then people will just come without visas. This will always be true. The illegal immigration issue is like a bath tub and eventually the bath tub gets full and the government decides that it is better to drain the tub then to let it over flow.

That's basically what's going on and what will continue to go on until we get smart and include freedom of movement for labor as part of NAFTA.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Bosh
DD is right, the only way to end illegal immigration is to come down HARD on the employers. Punishing illegal immigrants its stupid since they don't have anything to loose.

However companies that employ illegal immigrants have far too much power for them to get hit in any meaningful way in the forseeable future.

That's been my point in immigration threads here for years. Companies want cheap labor and the government wants to keep the economy rolling so they're not going to start bankrupting companies because they've hired Mexicans to work for them. There for companies won't stop because they make more money using illegal labor and paying periodic fines then if they use legal workers. It's simple economics.

The politicians just want it both ways. They want to make it extremely difficult for immigrants to get here legally to keep the unions and red neck bigots happy while companies want as much labor as possible as that decreases the cost of labor. Thus is born the politicians' solution; pass laws making it extremely difficult for most (meaning noncollege educated) people who want to immigrant to come here but then don't enforce the law so that businesses still get their cheap labor. There is an added dynamic that this is an unfunded mandate from Congress because Congress says these migrants are illegal and that local governments should arrest them but they won't pay for police officers or jails so local police say they don't have the resources to bother with this. Add on that local companies don't want the police to arrest their workers and you see why this problem isn't going away.

It's much better to just tell the unions and red neck bigots to shut up and change the laws to reflect reality. If you want these people to be legal then start issuing more visas so workers can come legally.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Patroklos

It makes even less sense here, where a 9 month pregnant Mexican can step a foot across the border, pop out her offspring, and now have a excuse to live here indefinetly. It works, just look at Oerdin.

You're a dumb ass, I'm as white as can be with blue eyes and light brown hair. My background is entirely British and French Canadian plus my family, at least on my mother's side, has likely been here longer then yours as well (assuming your not a Native American).

The "law" about citizenship you so want to change is in the Constitution, numb nuts. It just isn't going to be changed so get used to it.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Patroklos
If they can't move their families, they will stop coming and many will go back. If the ones we find during normal operations are deported, no different than what we do now.

This shows how clueless you really are. In the last 5 years we've cracked down harder then ever yet the population of illegals has actually dramatically went up. Why? The answer is that illegals used to migrate seasonally for jobs then go back home to see their families but since it is now so expensive and difficult to get over the border they simply stay.

Shutting off employment would work but won't happen because businesses have money and are willing to buy politicians. Thus we're stuck with either keeping millions of people illegal or finding a way to legalize them.

[Patroklos]

You're a dumb ass, I'm as white as can be with blue eyes and light brown hair. My background is entirely British and French Canadian plus my family, at least on my mother's side, has likely been here longer then yours as well (assuming your not a Native American).

No, there is no practical way to deport those 12 million people especially the ones with kids born in the US (which is the majority) so really WTF other choice do we have?

You may apologize at your convenience.

The "law" about citizenship you so want to change is in the Constitution, numb nuts. It just isn't going to be changed so get used to it.

Would not the constitution amount to laws, "numb nuts." But apparently it would be just as easy to change as getting an immigration bill passed. That is what you should get used to.

1986ish is the way it is going to be for a long time, so enforce it and fix the problem.

[Patroklos]

This shows how clueless you really are. In the last 5 years we've cracked down harder then ever yet the population of illegals has actually dramatically went up. Why? The answer is that illegals used to migrate seasonally for jobs then go back home to see their families but since it is now so expensive and difficult to get over the border they simply stay.

You will note that is not the only measure I said we should employ (I guess you did...as...you...mentioned it just afterward ). Guess what, my car engine doesn't work with out a piston and a housing either. If I present ideas as a single plan, making up stupid alternatives if only one action is taken is not a reflection of my opinion.

Shutting off employment would work but won't happen because businesses have money and are willing to buy politicians. Thus we're stuck with either keeping millions of people illegal or finding a way to legalize them.

I think it would be difficult to accomplish, but not impossible.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
I thought the law was a pretty decent compromise.

Can someone like Ramo answer me this though? Why is favoring skills something the left dislikes?

It was just about as good a compromise as we will ever get out of our political process so the people who refused to vote for this are just cowards. They know if they do anything then someone will get pissed off and they might lose office so they've decided to do nothing. Effectively covering their eyes and pretending there isn't a giant pink elephant in the room with them.

I'm not far left like Ramo but I'd say that favoring people with skills is exactly what we should be aiming for with one exception. Namely, the groups we have no chance in hell of stopping any way namely our neighbors to the north and south. Those people are so close and the border so big we can't stop mass migration no matter how hard we try so we might as well accept it. Add free movement of labor into NAFTA and complete it.

[DanS]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Who said anything about deportations? Employers would be my target. Banckrupt a few from fines and the problem solves itself.

The economy is much more informal than you give it credit.

[Patroklos]

The economy is much more informal than you give it credit.

True, throw a couple hundred in jail and it will fix itself.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Patroklos

Would not the constitution amount to laws, "numb nuts." But apparently it would be just as easy to change as getting an immigration bill passed. That is what you should get used to.

1986ish is the way it is going to be for a long time, so enforce it and fix the problem.

The Constitution most certainly is not "as easy to change as getting an immigration bill passed". I've already explained why enforcement isn't going to happen, namely, because businesses don't want it enforced and politicians are whores for money. Continually repeating to deport the Mexicans won't change those facts.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Patroklos

True, throw a couple hundred in jail and it will fix itself.

We already throw millions into jail but it hasn't worked. Any more guesses?

[DanS]

Originally posted by Patroklos
True, throw a couple hundred in jail and it will fix itself.

Take a step back and think about what actually happens in real life in the US. The only thing you will have accomplished is that a couple hundred illegals with attorneys are now sitting in your jails for a good long time.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by DanS


The economy is much more informal than you give it credit.

Where I live the illegals hang out at the 7-11, looking for day labor work. The folks who drive up and pick them up are construction and other small contractors/subcontractors, but also suburban householders looking for cheap lawncare, etc. Wonder what would happen if a couple of hundred suburban householders went to jail?

You could put them in cells next to teh eevil music pirates.

[DanS]

What laws are those suburban householders breaking? And what laws are the contractors/subcontractors breaking?

Give me a break.