Thank you G-D! Immigration reform bill is pulled....

[Barnabas]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse


Actually, no.

Well, at least in south america and Spain it is like that.

[Patroklos]

WTF? People have repeatedly brought up the economic reason, the you can't physically move and deport 12 million people, and the let's have the police solve real crimes instead of this crap explanations.

Actually I said would be a simple solution. More to the point I said it was possible, and that you were disingenuous by maintaining that it was impossible and basing support for your wishy washy amnesty crap on that false assumption. "Its impossible, so you have to do it my way."

I don't want to follow that hard line, but it is important for business and illegals to KNOW it could be done, and anything less than that is a favor/mercy/gift from the American people, not some silent admission that they have a right to remain here or that they are indeed not criminals.

Let's assume you get your way, you put on your little arm band, and start loading 12 million people onto trains.

I specifically said that is NOT what I wanted to happen, because it was clear to me that once your ill conceived arguments failed you would have no choice but to Godwinize this thread.

Just for you...

No need for a massive witch hunt. We are not talking about packing Mexicans into box cars and shipping them across the border. Just enforce the laws as violations are discovered.

You really are too much sometimes Oerdfin.

You know that the legal co-workers will be complaining to the politicians, the media will be having a field day with crying children asking where daddy went, business owners will be screaming bloody murder because their profits just took a hit, and everyone else will be waiting in long lines at restaurants while their lawns look like crap. Illegals do most of the back room stuff (washing dishes, maids, nannies, cooks, etc), the dirty stuff which Americans don't want to do (picking produce, unclogging toilets, gutting farm animals for slaughter, etc), and they're willing to work much cheaper so we all get lower inflation and increased buying power.

Well since we established that instant deportation is not what I said, again your cherry picked hypothetical is not relevant anything. But, you may note that all of that economic impact can be solved by the stream of legal immigrants around the world that respect our laws enough to apply and pay taxes when the get here. In fact, we could probably let as many legal immigrants in to match the number of unassimilated law breakers we return.

And who cares about the business? They are not going to go bankrupt, the just might have to *shock* pay a decent wage to attract labor. Are you not someone who *****es about evil buisness in almost every thread you start (coupled with Bush envy rants of course)?

I see we're looking at this from two totally different view points. You think Mexicans being here without papers (or maybe just Mexicans period) is the problem.

Only one person has revealed his latent racial insecurities is this thread. You have yet to apologize btw.

In my view the problem is the government doesn't issue enough visas to keep up with demand and shortages in certain industries practically force employers to hire illegals to fill job vacancies.

So fix that.

Most people in my area think the same as do most police officers who won't even bother with an immigration case because they're trying to stop real crime.

No police officer anywhere is supposed to do that Oerdin. Did you forget Virginia Beach already?

[Patroklos]

The illegals do pay into SS, though, don't they?

Some, not most.

[DanS]

Originally posted by Patroklos
No, the owner/operator of the plumbing buisness does. That person has to file all sorts of things to start his buisness in the first place. If he is not then there are 20 other things to fine him on other than immigration status.

Perhaps plumbing is regulated to a higher degree, but there are lots of sole proprietor businesses that fly under the radar. If you're trying to close the loophole by holding the customer to account, as you are advocating, everybody would be inspecting SS cards and filing 1099s for casual work, even for the local boy who cuts your lawn from time to time. It's just plumb ridiculous.

[Patroklos]

Perhaps plumbing is regulated to a higher degree, but there are lots of sole proprietor businesses that fly under the radar. If you're trying to close the loophole by holding the customer to account, everybody would be inspecting SS cards and filing 1099s.

Who said anything about holding the customer to account? I said employer. The contractor who hires someone to work the job site. The housewife that hires people to tend the lawn (that is small fries obviously). The farmer who hires people to pick the crops.

Employers.

Now when we are talking one person enterprises, well is the person hiring the one man plumber enterpise the employer of does that guy really run a business. I don't know, but there would have to be rules on the books already to distiguish that for tax reasons.

[DanS]

There is no distinction between customer and employer. In law, they might have thresholds (x number of $ over a year, f.e.), but for our purposes here, there's no difference.

[Patroklos]

Yes, but we are discussing ways to stop a problem, and the practicality of that. I think employers are the way to go as there are certain things they have to do (those things are basically verify citizenship) like pay taxes, minimum wages and whatnot and if they don't do them there is a legal recourse for it.

[Kuciwalker]

Have you even read DanS's past five posts or so?

[Patroklos]

I have addressed everything he has said.

The customer and employer are not the same thing as far as the tax code is concerened. If I go to a Taco Bell am I the same thing as the manager who hired the guys I never see on the line? Who had a responsibility to get an SSN and pay the SS? Maybe the guy had a real good fake, the manager can bring that up to the judge. Common sence excuses work for traffic tickets.

Granted, like I already said, I don't know how the tax code deals with one member businesses, but they do.

But from DanS's example above, illegal immigration asside everything he describes is required already. You can't run a business legally without registering and paying taxes on it. So even if you are an illegal with a one man enterpise, the law snags you just as it would a citizen trying to run an under the table business and dodge taxes. They would just discover you were illegal at the same time.

This is simple gentlemen, ENFORCE THE DAMN LAWS!!!

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Patroklos
I have addressed everything he has said.

The customer and employer are not the same thing as far as the tax code is concerened. If I go to a Taco Bell am I the same thing as the manager who hired the guys I never see on the line? Who had a responsibility to get an SSN and pay the SS? Maybe the guy had a real good fake, the manager can bring that up to the judge. Common sence excuses work for traffic tickets.

Employers are only tasked with ensuring they have documentation on file not that it is legit. That has been the govenment's task. One that they simply don't wish to do. In order to do so we are talking about completely new sets of infrastructure starting with a non counterfeited ID issued nationwide, a whole new set of database management, and an enforcement arm as well. We're talking huge bloat in government.

[Patroklos]

Employers are only tasked with ensuring they have documentation on file not that it is legit.

We can start with that, because it is obviously not. As far as the rest, sounds sort of like enforcing the laws, does it not?

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Patroklos


We can start with that, because it is obviously not. As far as the rest, sounds sort of like enforcing the laws, does it not?

Then you starting with changing the law. And it has been pretty much a given that small laws to address the issue are not going to go through congress. All or nothing is the political reality, unfortunately. Breaking it down into small pieces isn't going to fly since the Repugs lost power.


But perhaps I misread your comment that you believe it IS the responsibility of the employer to determine if documentation is indeed legit. I don't see how one could reasonably expect an employer to make this determination given the opportunity for counterfeit documentation. No this still belongs at the governmental level to provide a means of foolproof identification.

[Patroklos]

Then you starting with changing the law. And it has been pretty much a given that small laws to address the issue are not going to go through congress. All or nothing is the political reality, unfortunately. Breaking it down into small pieces isn't going to fly since the Repugs lost power.

Most of what I have suggested is the current law. Would be nice to tweek it, but we can start with what we have now.

Better late than never.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Vesayen
Law and order? Someone breaks a law? Persecute them.

fixed for conservatives

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Patroklos
It makes absolutely no sense. The citizenship of your parents is what should dictate a childs citizenship.

You took an oath to defend the Constitution, but you don't even know what's in it? I sure feel safe.