Is there a 'World Jewish Conspiracy'?

[Cort Haus]

But Dragiša Cvetkovic's government was the one that was overthrown by a coup with British support in March 1941, ending the Yugoslav support for the Axis, and prompting the Invasion a few weeks later. Hence the anti-Jewish laws quoted above would have been the work of a government trying to appeal to Germany rather than to oppose it.

In the post-invasion Government, even the quisling Milan Nedić could not co-operate with the Nazis on policy relating to Jews.

From Ruth Mitchell's book again:

"The fact that Nedich twice demanded from the Gernan commanding officer in Serbia and the Banat that he and his government should be given the right to settle the Jewish problem, against whom no drastic measures should and could be taken in Serbia, shows the feeling of the Serbian people toward the Jews. The following reasons were given by Nedich to the Germans for this demand. If the Germans wanted the Serbs to calm down, it would be of first importance to stop the terrible persecution of the Serbian Jews. The Serbian people could not and would not accept such treatement `of their compatriots of the Jewish religion.' The Serbs consider Jews as their brothers, only of a different religion. The answer which Nedich recieved from the Germans regarding this demand was 'that the Serbs have not attained a culture to the degree necessary to enable them to deal with the Jews. We ourselves shall settle the Jewish question in Serbia.'

I will read the Ivo Goldstein .pdf that Arrian posted.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by molly bloom
It concluded a concordat with Fascist Party in Italy headed by an avowed atheist.

It instructed the Catholic Party in Germany to use its votes to secure the majority needed to provide Hitler with dictatorial powers.

Clear enough ?

It still doesn't make it directly responsible for Holocaust.

Irrelevant.

Relevant.

Funny, Cardinal Faulhaber felt sufficiently moved to criticise the Weimar Republic's legality (!) by describing its creation in November 1918 as characterized by: 'perjury and high treason'.*

Was he the only one?

Bishop Burger had this to say:
Even better- Bishop Groeber of Freiburg showed his approval of Nazi antisemitism by comparing it with the Jesuits' policy of excluding applicants to the order who had Jewish ancestry.

Better yet- Bishop Berning of Osnabruck preached obedience and loyalty to the state when visiting concentration camps in his diocese.

Makes for a good comparison with Cardinal Faulhaber's attitude towards the Weimar Republic, don't you think ?

It would, if it was the same person saying it.
Anyway, I need some proof for these quotes

Clearly much worse than a Western European dictatorship in the service of murderers led by a lapsed Catholic....

Indeed.

The German Catholic 'Klerusblatt justified the Nuremberg Race Laws of 1936 as:
[/quote]

If these quotes are true (proof?), they show intrusion of un-christian notions of nationalism and racism into some bishops of german branch of catholic church, but it doesn't make the entire church responsible for Holocaust.

Cardinal Bertram after the treaty-breaking Anschluss with Austria, had this to say:

I don't see Anschluss as something evil.

He was happy because his sect had just acquired a few more million adherents. Pity about those outbreaks of violent antisemitism and attacks on political opponents of the Nazis, but he had to get his priorities right...

It seems he was happy because he was a german patriot. Also, Austrians were already catholics.

You keep harping on about extermination of the Jews, but part of the German Right Wing's activities included assassination of Jews, including Rosa Luxemburg and Kurt Eisner and the assimilated Jew, Walther Rathenau.

These were singular political assassinations, with antisemitic flavour. I find them very different from holocaust.

I have faith in deeds, not words.

Words inspire deeds. And You do have faith in words, when quoting fascists or german bishops...

Individual efforts by Catholics during the war do not make up for what the Church's political actions helped bring about.

RCC wasn't aware what its actions may finally lead to. Also, anti-nazi words by Pius XI may have inspired many to such actions.

I do not deny there was antisemitism in catholic hierarchy, activists or populace. But that didn't lead to Holocaust. In Poland, there were people like Zofia Kossak-Szczucka or Jan Mosdorf, who were antisemites, but risked their lives (Mosdorf died in Auschwitz, Kossak survived it) to help Jews during Holocaust. There is a huge difference between old-fashioned antisemitism and Hitler-like one. And I may surmise that words from highest catholic authority may have influenced their behaviour.

Possibly because deliberate mass extermination of a people and culture on such a large scale had never been attempted before.

(...)

Who would have believed that such a place, dedicated to mass extermination on an unprecedented scale, could possibly be built by the people who had given the world Schiller, Bach and Durer ?

Exactly. So if Jews didn't believe in Holocaust when it was actually happening and when they had eyewitness accounts presented to them by officials of a state, why would RCC surmise it could happen years earlier?

War ? Why not ? Hitler made no secret of his aim to extinguish 'Judaeo-Bolschewismus' as he called it.

Yet he didn't always act like he was bent on it.

You keep droning on about the Church's ability or inability to foresee the Holocaust, as if this is a major hole in my argument.

Because it is

When the Danes save thousands of Jews you treat it as if all of the population in Nazi occupied Europe were all saving as many Jews as they could.

Perhaps not all, but simply other nations didn't have the possibilities Danes had.

You implied that it was more difficult for Eastern Europeans to save Jews as the Danes did because Danish Jews were assimilated or did not resemble Hassidic Jews.

I pointed out that being assimilated did not save Jews in Hungary, Croatia, Czechoslovakia, France, Germany, Austria... and it still holds true.

That was just one of the factors.

Boring.

But true.

I'm really unsure what more you expected the Danes to do- defeat the Nazis on their own ?

Liberate Auschwitz ? You're being absurd.

No, it's You being silly
Please, read past posts again and see what I was refering to...

Clearly not to 'Christian' Catholic Poland or Croatia or Slovakia.

I'm glad you find the prospect of Jews having to flee from Christians to atheists so funny.

I do not find nazi regime "christian". And where was this Poland they should be fleeing to? Wasn't it just conquered by Germany? Weren't Croatia and Slovakia german proxies?

I fail to see why you keep asking me questions. I'm not here to educate you- however much it may be required.

Provide your own analysis of the situation for Jews under Nazi occupation in the Netherlands and Norway.

I think You may know it better than me

You ignored the changed situation in Denmark- replacement of a Reich functionary with an S.S. member as Reich Plenipotentiary. The occupation by the German army, the disarming of the Danish forces, the imprisonment of the King and the imminent introduction of measures to deport the Jews of Denmark to extermination camps.

Deportation of Jews from Norway has happened earlier, which made it possible to get ready for such an action.

What was the punishment for smuggling / hiding Jews?

You also claimed that it was possible to see Sweden from Denmark- and so it was, for members of the occupying Wehrmacht as much as for any Danish civilians.

As everywhere else.

[quote]
Wrong. He had not blasphemed. Had he blasphemed, the Jewish faith, the Jewish authorities could have executed him themselves.

He suffers a death at Roman hands, by Roman order, for a crime against Rome- not against the Roman's client ruler, and not against the Jewish religious authorities.

If that's what you truly 'remember', then I feel very sorry for you.

What do You remember of this case, I am curious?

I have a better understanding of excommunication than you, I think.

I think not.

[Arrian]

Vet Legion, the .pdf I posted does say there was a tradition of anti-semitism in Croatia, though I think Cort's right that it all comes down to what you consider "virulent."

I'm going off of my memory of what I read a couple of days ago now, so perhaps I've missed something or misremembered...

-Arrian

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Heresson

It still doesn't make it directly responsible for Holocaust.

I haven't said that the Holocaust was solely the work of Christianity or the Roman Catholic Church.

The long tradition of antisemitism and the preaching of Jew hatred in Church writings from the early Church Fathers such as St. Augustine of Hippo: 'Tractatus Adversus Judaeos'- a popular antisemitic diatribe of his, all the way through the antisemitic statues adorning Strasbourg Cathedral, the grotesque caricatures of Jews in Mystery and Passion plays andMediaeval manuscripts, specific anti-Jewish sermons being preached in churches and cathedrals and then pogrom after pogrom, and blood libel and persecution of even converted Jews...

...really, when you look at the actions and words of the Catholic Church over the centuries, the only thing distinguishing it from the Nazis with regard to the solving of the 'Jewish Question', is that the Nazis had better planning and followed through on their promises.

Relevant.

You'll have to do better, and show how.

Was he the only one?

No, Hitler and the Rightwing also criticised Weimar's legitimacy, blaming it on the November Criminals and 'the Jews'.

They weren't Cardinals of the German Roman Catholic Church though.

Funny how the German Catholic Church can pick and choose when to 'render unto Caesar', isn't it ?

Concentration camps= good, apparently.



Democratic republic= bad.

It would, if it was the same person saying it.

It makes a good comparison regardless- they're all members of the same Church's hierarchy.

Anyway, I need some proof for these quotes

They're from some books I read.

Like I said, you back up your unsupported assertions and we'll be on a level playing field.

If these quotes are true (proof?), they show intrusion of un-christian notions of nationalism and racism into some bishops of german branch of catholic church, but it doesn't make the entire church responsible for Holocaust.

Arguing against a point I haven't made.

I don't see Anschluss as something evil.

Super!

Too bad for those Austrian Jews and Democrats and Socialists.

Also, Austrians were already catholics.

Even the Jews ? Not Sigmund Freud, certainly.

It seems he was happy because he was a german patriot.

He was happy because he couldn't give a damn about democracy or Jews.

These were singular political assassinations, with antisemitic flavour. I find them very different from holocaust.

Yes, the Holocaust involved killing millions of individual Jews from all over Europe, not just German ones. Trying to separate the antisemitic movement in Germany and Austria from what came after the Wannsee Conference is pointless and diversionary.

You simply keep trying to make it look as though antisemitism and anti-Jewish murder happened all at once and was unstoppable or its 'logical' extension unforeseeable.

And You do have faith in words, when quoting fascists or german bishops...

I do indeed, when I know what they said and what they did after.

You quote a pope who says there's no place for racism; I quote a German prince of the Roman Catholic Church who thinks the Nuremberg Laws are peachy.

I mention two Church concordats with non-Catholic parties, one of which is openly antisemitic in word and deed...

RCC wasn't aware what its actions may finally lead to.

Prove it. In any case, that isn't my argument.

My argument is that for a supposedly universal Church based on the Old and New Testaments and dedicated to a loving, forgiving God of Jewish origins, the Roman Catholic Church as a political, temporal power and as a spiritual power, failed in its duty to oppose a party which was explicitly antisemitic in operation and in thought and more, was responsible for ensuring the 'legal' seizure of dictatorial powers by Hitler.

Long after he and his party had shown their true colours.

I do not deny there was antisemitism in catholic hierarchy, activists or populace.

I've already demonstrated that it was there from the end of the old Roman Empire- before, really.

But that didn't lead to Holocaust.

Again, arguing a point I haven't made. Antisemitism (in Protestant parts of Germany and in Catholic Europe) was a constant thread through the ages- at first mainly or only based on religion and based on the lie of the 'Christ killers', then the blood libel appears in England in the 12th Century and spreads across Europe.

The Crusaders massacre Jewish populations in the Rhineland.

In the 14th Century Jews are accused of being plague spreaders and well-poisoners, in Spain, in the Church authorized Reconquista and Inquisition religion no longer is the sole determining factor for anti-Jewish hatred, but blood pollution by virtue of Jewish ancestry raises its head.

Even converted Jews are burnt at the stake or expelled.

In the Hussite Wars, Jewish communities are again targeted- despite not even being heretic Christians.

The Chmielnicki Massacres killed tens of thousands of Jews- although at least this time it wasn't the Roman Catholic Cburch killing them.

The blood libel reappears in Kiev in the case of Mendel Beilis- from Mediaeval 12th Century England to 20th Century Kiev, a hatred and a lie that just won't quit.

And I may surmise

Surmise all you like. Makes no odds to me.

Exactly.

No, not exactly.

The Catholic hierarchy in Nazi Germany and some Protestant Churches made their feelings felt about the Nazi's euthanasia programme for the mentally ill and disabled- and it was curtailed, but continued at a lesser level and in secret.

This was after war had begun, and after the detention and killing of Jews in Nazi Germany and occupied Poland.

"plain murder."

That's the verdict on the nazi Euthanasia Programme by a Catholic Bishop (later Cardinal), Clemens von Galen, on August 3rd, 1941, in a sermon of his in Munster Cathedral.

Were the Jews then invisible ? Was their plight not worth mentioning ?

So if Jews didn't believe in Holocaust when it was actually happening

Jews in America, where death camps were not a routine sight.

Not the Catholic hierarchy in Germany which protested at the Nazis mass killing of the sick and mentally ill, and which had representatives in Nazi-occupied Poland, the Ukraine, Croatia, a priest as head of state in Slovakia...

why would RCC surmise it could happen years earlier?

See above.

Yet he didn't always act like he was bent on it.

Along with antisemitism, it is a constant in his thought, in his deeds and his life, from 1919 onwards.

Even during the Nazi-Soviet Pact, plans were prepared to invade the Soviet Union. It is a constant theme in his speeches, in 'Mein Kampf' at the Nazi rallies-

the Jew is a Communist, a Bolshevik, the Jews are racial bacilli*, Bolshevism is a disease making Russia rotten...

* Hitler improves upon Mediaeval Catholicism. The Jews used only to spread plague, now according to him, they actually are one.

Because it is

Then I'm afraid you believe your own misreading. Too bad for you.

Perhaps not all, but simply other nations didn't have the possibilities Danes had.

So you say. And yet this again is not a main point of my argument, nor is it relevant, nor does it diminish what the Protestant Danes did.

I do not find nazi regime "christian".

Bully for you. Some of its leaders were, and it tried to create a Protestant National Socialist Confessional Church.

As we've seen, it also enjoyed quite some support from Catholics and Protestants.

Weren't Croatia and Slovakia german proxies?

Yes, run by Clerico-Fascist Catholic regimes.

I suggest that it is unwise for you to comment on my status as a Catholic, knowing nothing of my private life.

I also suggest you look up the process of how one is excommunicated.

Not as easy as you seem to think.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Heresson

It still doesn't make it directly responsible for Holocaust.

I haven't said that the Holocaust was solely the work of Christianity or the Roman Catholic Church.

The long tradition of antisemitism and the preaching of Jew hatred in Church writings from the early Church Fathers such as St. Augustine of Hippo: 'Tractatus Adversus Judaeos'- a popular antisemitic diatribe of his, all the way through the antisemitic statues adorning Strasbourg Cathedral, the grotesque caricatures of Jews in Mystery and Passion plays andMediaeval manuscripts, specific anti-Jewish sermons being preached in churches and cathedrals and then pogrom after pogrom, and blood libel and persecution of even converted Jews...

...really, when you look at the actions and words of the Catholic Church over the centuries, the only thing distinguishing it from the Nazis with regard to the solving of the 'Jewish Question', is that the Nazis had better planning and followed through on their promises.

Relevant.

You'll have to do better, and show how.

Was he the only one?

No, Hitler and the Rightwing also criticised Weimar's legitimacy, blaming it on the November Criminals and 'the Jews'.

They weren't Cardinals of the German Roman Catholic Church though.

Funny how the German Catholic Church can pick and choose when to 'render unto Caesar', isn't it ?

Concentration camps= good, apparently.



Democratic republic= bad.

It would, if it was the same person saying it.

It makes a good comparison regardless- they're all members of the same Church's hierarchy.

Anyway, I need some proof for these quotes

They're from some books I read.

Like I said, you back up your unsupported assertions and we'll be on a level playing field.

If these quotes are true (proof?), they show intrusion of un-christian notions of nationalism and racism into some bishops of german branch of catholic church, but it doesn't make the entire church responsible for Holocaust.

Arguing against a point I haven't made.

I don't see Anschluss as something evil.

Super!

Too bad for those Austrian Jews and Democrats and Socialists.

Also, Austrians were already catholics.

Even the Jews ? Not Sigmund Freud, certainly.

It seems he was happy because he was a german patriot.

He was happy because he couldn't give a damn about democracy or Jews.

These were singular political assassinations, with antisemitic flavour. I find them very different from holocaust.

Yes, the Holocaust involved killing millions of individual Jews from all over Europe, not just German ones. Trying to separate the antisemitic movement in Germany and Austria from what came after the Wannsee Conference is pointless and diversionary.

You simply keep trying to make it look as though antisemitism and anti-Jewish murder happened all at once and was unstoppable or its 'logical' extension unforeseeable.

And You do have faith in words, when quoting fascists or german bishops...

I do indeed, when I know what they said and what they did after.

You quote a pope who says there's no place for racism; I quote a German prince of the Roman Catholic Church who thinks the Nuremberg Laws are peachy.

I mention two Church concordats with non-Catholic parties, one of which is openly antisemitic in word and deed...

RCC wasn't aware what its actions may finally lead to.

Prove it. In any case, that isn't my argument.

My argument is that for a supposedly universal Church based on the Old and New Testaments and dedicated to a loving, forgiving God of Jewish origins, the Roman Catholic Church as a political, temporal power and as a spiritual power, failed in its duty to oppose a party which was explicitly antisemitic in operation and in thought and more, was responsible for ensuring the 'legal' seizure of dictatorial powers by Hitler.

Long after he and his party had shown their true colours.

I do not deny there was antisemitism in catholic hierarchy, activists or populace.

I've already demonstrated that it was there from the end of the old Roman Empire- before, really.

But that didn't lead to Holocaust.

Again, arguing a point I haven't made. Antisemitism (in Protestant parts of Germany and in Catholic Europe) was a constant thread through the ages- at first mainly or only based on religion and based on the lie of the 'Christ killers', then the blood libel appears in England in the 12th Century and spreads across Europe.

The Crusaders massacre Jewish populations in the Rhineland.

In the 14th Century Jews are accused of being plague spreaders and well-poisoners, in Spain, in the Church authorized Reconquista and Inquisition religion no longer is the sole determining factor for anti-Jewish hatred, but blood pollution by virtue of Jewish ancestry raises its head.

Even converted Jews are burnt at the stake or expelled.

In the Hussite Wars, Jewish communities are again targeted- despite not even being heretic Christians.

The Chmielnicki Massacres killed tens of thousands of Jews- although at least this time it wasn't the Roman Catholic Cburch killing them.

The blood libel reappears in Kiev in the case of Mendel Beilis- from Mediaeval 12th Century England to 20th Century Kiev, a hatred and a lie that just won't quit.

And I may surmise

Surmise all you like. Makes no odds to me.

Exactly.

No, not exactly.

The Catholic hierarchy in Nazi Germany and some Protestant Churches made their feelings felt about the Nazi's euthanasia programme for the mentally ill and disabled- and it was curtailed, but continued at a lesser level and in secret.

This was after war had begun, and after the detention and killing of Jews in Nazi Germany and occupied Poland.

"plain murder."

That's the verdict on the nazi Euthanasia Programme by a Catholic Bishop (later Cardinal), Clemens von Galen, on August 3rd, 1941, in a sermon of his in Munster Cathedral.

Were the Jews then invisible ? Was their plight not worth mentioning ?

So if Jews didn't believe in Holocaust when it was actually happening

Jews in America, where death camps were not a routine sight.

Not the Catholic hierarchy in Germany which protested at the Nazis mass killing of the sick and mentally ill, and which had representatives in Nazi-occupied Poland, the Ukraine, Croatia, a priest as head of state in Slovakia...

why would RCC surmise it could happen years earlier?

See above.

Yet he didn't always act like he was bent on it.

Along with antisemitism, it is a constant in his thought, in his deeds and his life, from 1919 onwards.

Even during the Nazi-Soviet Pact, plans were prepared to invade the Soviet Union. It is a constant theme in his speeches, in 'Mein Kampf' at the Nazi rallies-

the Jew is a Communist, a Bolshevik, the Jews are racial bacilli*, Bolshevism is a disease making Russia rotten...

* Hitler improves upon Mediaeval Catholicism. The Jews used only to spread plague, now according to him, they actually are one.

Because it is

Then I'm afraid you believe your own misreading. Too bad for you.

Perhaps not all, but simply other nations didn't have the possibilities Danes had.

So you say. And yet this again is not a main point of my argument, nor is it relevant, nor does it diminish what the Protestant Danes did.

I do not find nazi regime "christian".

Bully for you. Some of its leaders were, and it tried to create a Protestant National Socialist Confessional Church.

As we've seen, it also enjoyed quite some support from Catholics and Protestants.

Weren't Croatia and Slovakia german proxies?

Yes, run by Clerico-Fascist Catholic regimes.

I suggest that it is unwise for you to comment on my status as a Catholic, knowing nothing of my private life.

I also suggest you look up the process of how one is excommunicated.

Not as easy as you seem to think.

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by GePap
If there is one, its the worst run conspiracy ever.

It's not perfect, but not that bad.

[Mr. President]

Why are there so many threads of late about Jews? Apolyton is stupid.

[KrazyHorse]

Duh? Jews run Apolyton as well as the world. It's obvious.

[Kuciwalker]

And redundant.

[Lancer]

Been away, did I miss anything?

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
And redundant.

Agency problem. Duh.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
this has easily become the most boring thread ever.

it was really great before though.

So sorry, 'Name That Pogrom!' and 'Antisemitic Family Fortunes' are rescheduled for Saturday evening.

Why are there so many threads of late about Jews?

Mr. President

Didn't you know ? It's a Jewish conspiracy. We're all Protocol puppets.


For those considering a new look for Summer, may I suggest the fetching black and purple ensemble of a Catholic Archbishop in the S.S. ?

Q. After 1933, was this movement even stronger?

A. Yes, after 1933 the Prince of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen became a member, as well as the Archbishop of Brunswick, Prince Lippe-Biesterfeld, General Graf von Schulenburg and many others.

Q. Do you know that Archbishop Groeber of Freiburg became a sponsoring member of the SS?

A. Yes, I know that.

The Trial of German Major War Criminals
Sitting at Nuremberg, Germany

29th July to 8th August 1946

[Krill]

Can I take part in the conspiricy?

[Slaughtermeyer]

Originally posted by Krill
Can I take part in the conspiricy?

Anyone with a computer and access to the internet can take part. One of my posts earlier in this thread describes exactly how to join.