Is there a 'World Jewish Conspiracy'?

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Heresson

When it comes to France and Netherlands, the size of jewish population and the geography probably have played some role as well.

'Probably'. And you have the nerve to ask me for 'proof'.

In fact, the Vichy regime(for instance) went further than even German allies (such as Bulgaria, Finland and pre-Salo Republic Italy) in its attacks on Jews, French and foreign.

And yet Spain, a 'neutral' country, lay to the south and Switzerland another 'neutral' also shared a land border with France.

The ones (Polish Jews) in the camps in Germany were mostly killed.

And ?

You needn't have mentioned the ones who escaped to USSR

Why ? Jews, including religious Jews, fled to safety in an atheist Communist country. So much for 'Christian' charity...

My number was what I remembered from history lessons,

I'd guessed as much. Long time ago were they, and dimly remembered ?

but I find similar one in wikipedia and elsewhere.

Really. Proof ?

There are forests, but one needs food from outside of it.

Very nice, but we're not talking about survival training.

Poland was in much worse situation than any other country when it comes to hiding Jews

Because of its history of antisemitism, you mean ?

Because the Polish government enacted anti-Jewish measures pre-1939 ?

there was death penalty for it

And what ? Free gifts for those who helped Jews elsewhere in Nazi-occupied Europe ?

millions of Poles were thrown out of their homes

And quite a lot found some nice empty Jewish homes, didn't they ? Compares rather badly with Denmark.

There were millions of Poles who died during the war, not only Jews.

Yes, and even more millions of Russians and a large number of Romany too.

Isn't danish prime minister assering it as fact enough?

He didn't prove your point:

and it (Denmark) only helped danish jews - when it comes to the ones seeking help from other countries, they were left to die.

A big fat lie: 1 500 of Denmark's Jewish population were recent arrivals, refugees from Nazi Gerrmany, Austria and Czechoslovakia.

As if it had anything to do with their religion.

We've seen the treatment Protestant Denmark gave its Jewish inhabitants, both citizens of Denmark and recent foreign arrivals.

What did Catholic Croatia and Slovakia do?

Set up concentration camps and cooperate in the mass deportation and subsequent slaughter of Jews:

In March 1939 Slovakia was declared an independent state, with Father (Monsignor) Jozef Tiso, a Catholic priest, as Prime Minister, and with the Hlinka People's party, a right-wing Catholic nationalist group, as the only legal party.

In October 1940 Tiso was elected President; pro-Nazi Votech Tuka became Prime Minister; Sano Mach, head of the Hlinka Guard, became Minister of the Interior...

In April 1939 the new Slovak state began to enact anti-Jewish legislation, defining the status of a Jew along religious rather than racial lines.

In rapid succession came a series of decrees excluding and restricting Jews in various professions and occupations.

Antisemitic violence on the part of the Hlinka Guard accompanied the administrative antisemitism.

On 9th September 1941 the Slovak government promulgated a major body of anti-Jewish legislation, containing 270 articles, re-defining the Jews as a racial group, requiring them to wear the identifying yellow Star of David, making them liable to forced labour and evicting them from specified towns and districts.

Plans for deportation began late in 1941; in March 1942 five assembly points for deportees were set up, and despite intensive efforts on the part of Jewish communal leaders to halt them, deportations continued unabated from March to August 1942.

Some 58 000 Jews, 75 % of Slovak Jews, had been deported, mostly to Auschwitz.

'Jews in Wartime Slovakia', from 'The War Against The Jews' by Lucy Dawidowicz.

Croatia:

Croatia declared its independence on April 10th 1941, and a puppet government was established in Zagrenb, under Ante Pavelic, leader of the Ustachiu, a Croat nationalist organization.

Ustachi terror andbrutality alientaed many Croats from support ofthe Pavelic regime, and the partisans, particularly those under Tito made considerable gains among the population.

German reprisals against the partisans were extremely harsh.

The Jews in Serbia and Croatia were on the whole well-to-do...

Jews (had) enjoyed full civic and religious rights in (pre-war) Yugoslavia.

Antisemitism had had no tradition in Serbia, but during the 1930s it began to seep in from Croatia,which had long been virulently antisemitic.

Standard anti-Jewish legisaltion was introduced right after Pavelic's government was set up, defining the status of Jews, ordering identifying badges for Jews and Jewish businesses.

By October 1941 most Jews in croatia, Bosnia abnd Herzegovina were engaged in forced labour, languishing in camps or had already been shot.

In August 1942 some 9 000 Jews were deported, most to Auschwitz.

'Jews in Pre-War and Wartime Yugoslavia', source as above.

Anyway, it's not about the number,

You mentioned that first, belittling the Danish rescue of Jews:

Its jewish population was tiny

Remember ?

but element of their politics

Yes, that's clear: Catholic Archbishop Stepinac eagerly supported the Catholic right-wing regime of Pavelic.

You've tried to deny, in vain.

I've done nothing of the sort.

You're not a catholic.

Even allowing for the fact that you're not privy to details of my private life, I have to inform you that I have not left the Catholic Church, nor am I an excommunicate nor have I been anathematized.

I have yet to take up any other religion.

Mali bloom sux is not a bias, it's a fact.

That's sweet of you, but it's a rather unsubtle and unfunny element of your signature, is all. Oh, and a good reminder of your poor debating skills.

Get yourself better glasses.

I don't require a prescription for spectacles- and certainly not the rosy-tinted kind you view Catholic antisemitism with.

What do these other sources (but gnostic gospels) write about Jesus?

Read 'em.

Of course, Church authorities did so much to destroy evidence that didn't quite agree with the by then 'official' version....

I'm afraid it's difficult for You due to your poorly working brain.

Be afraid, be very afraid, because evidently your memory and eyesight are failing.

As the most dense one, You should know the answer.

Could you at least try not to just echo my posts ? It's like sound bouncing off canyon walls.

I do not think mentioning something obvious is necessary.

Uh huh:

There are forests (in Poland)

There were millions of Poles who died during the war, not only Jews.

Sure of that are you ?

So... the idea of that a critic of the Bible should be free from bias is allien to You.

Not what I said or what I meant.

No, but I do have low opinion of yourself...

Do you think I care ?

I've agreed that there is some anti-judaic bias in NT.

Eventually,and it would have been hard to deny it.

I do not deny antisemitism in christian culture through centuries

Me neither. Nor the antisemitism of the Roman Catholic Church.

but at the same time I am not sure if the hierarchy is (always) to be blamed for it,

I have never suggested that the Church hierarchy was ALWAYS responsible for acts of hatred towards the Jews.

I prefer to mention specific instances, usually with dates aand locations, or specific teachings.

and I do not see the direct link between christian-culture-like antisemitism and Holocaust.

Poor you then- as you said:

Get yourself better glasses.

St. Augustine of Hippo:

"The Jews who slew Him, and would not believe in Him, because it behoved Him to die and rise again, were yet more miserably wasted by the Romans, and utterly rooted out from their kingdom, where aliens had already ruled over them, and were dispersed through the lands (so that indeed there is no place where they are not), and are thus by their own Scriptures a testimony to us that we have not forged the prophecies about Christ."

Book 18, Chapter 46, of 'The City of God'.

Except of course, it was the Romans who killed him, with a Roman form of execution, for transgressing Roman law.

I think blaiming RCC for Holocaust is a manipulation.

I also think it's a misrepresentation if you're saying I've done so.

Why not? Why do You deny the possibility that the Jewish leaders actually wanted Jesus to be killed?

For what crime ?

If You do not understand my writing, ask politely

'Politely'- as if you knew what that meant.

For me it's a story of a guy who wanted to get some +1s and a jerk who took him seriously.

You're entitled to your illusions and misconceptions. Except that bit about you being:

a jerk

See, you can provide documentary proof of some things, without even being asked.

I will forever remember You also for your belief that central Ukraine remained greek-catholic

You've remembered incorrectly then.

and your disability to accept You're wrong

I believe you mean to put 'inability'.

The disability is yours...

for your faith in Zosimos' stories

Boring.

Wrong.

As long as I've aided you with correct English spelling and grammar and you heed those lessons, I'll feel I've helped you achieve something you can at last be proud of.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Heresson

Was Holy See able to conclude concordats with these catholic parties?

Why ?

It abandoned parliamentary Catholic conservative parties in France, Germany and Italy, preferring to make deals with the German Nazi Party (not Catholic) and the Italian Fascists.

Furthermore, a Catholic priest was head of state of Slovakia and the Catholic hierarchy cooperated with forced conversions in Croatia- along with much else besides.

Perhaps it's faciliated this, but they didn't know what it would lead to.

Are you really this obtuse ? A thirteen year old antisemitic party programme, attacks on Jews in the street, in public life, blaming the Jews for Germany losing World War One, antisemitic actions of Freikorps members in Catholic Bavaria...

Hitler received the necessary votes for his 'legal' assumption of dictatorial powers from the Catholic Centre Party, under Monsignor Kaas.

Monsignor Kaas, a key figure in the Concordat negotiations, successfully combined both functions; as last floor leader of the Centre Party in the Reichstag he helped to procure the necessary two thirds majority for the Nazis' 'constitutional' abrogation of the constitution; he subsequently became a high Vatican officialwith special responsibility for Germanaffairs.

'Religion' from 'A Social History Of The Third Reich' by Richard Grunberger.

Not only did the Catholic Church in Germany and the Vatican know about Hitler's and the Nazis' antisemitic tenets, they helped him and them to attain the power to carry them out.

Also, I may be wrong, but it's Holy See that concludes concordats, not Vatican.

I'm using 'Vatican' where someone would use 'Germany' for German government. That, I would have thought, was clear.

Did they write there they'll send Jews to ovens?

Don't be facetious and irrelevant:

4. Only members of the nation may be citizens of the State. Only those of German blood, whatever be their creed, may be members of the nation. Accordingly, no Jew may be a member of the nation.

5. Non-citizens may live in Germany only as guests and must be subject to laws for aliens.

7. We demand that the State shall make it its primary duty to provide a livelihood for its citizens. If it should prove impossible to feed the entire population, foreign nationals (non-citizens) must be deported from the Reich.

18. We demand the ruthless prosecution of those whose activities are injurious to the common interest. Common criminals, usurers, profiteers, etc., must be punished with death, whatever their creed or race.

19. We demand that Roman Law, which serves a materialistic world order, be replaced by a German common law.

24. We demand freedom for all religious denominations in the State, provided they do not threaten its existence not offend the moral feelings of the German race.

The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not commit itself to any particular denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and without us, and is convinced that our nation can achieve permanent health only from within on the basis of the principle: The common interest before self-interest.

The leaders of the Party promise to work ruthlessly -- if need be to sacrifice their very lives -- to translate this programme into action.

N.S.D.A.P. Party programme, February 1920.


So: Jews are not German citizens, are only 'guests' and to be treated as aliens... they are to be denied the vote and government employment.

Their investments will be confiscated and their land appropriated. In the event of food shortages, only racial Germans will be fed.

'Usurers' and 'profiteers' (code words for'Jews') are to be persecuted ruthlessly.

Roman law, which had guaranteed Jews civil rights, is to be abolished.

Oh,and just in case any non-Jewish capitalists were unduly worried:

"Because of the mendacious interpretations on the part of our opponents of Point 17 of the programme of the NSDAP, the following explanation is necessary.: Since the NSDAP is fundamentally based on the principle of private property, it is obvious that the expression "confiscation without compensation" refers merely to the creation of possible legal means of confiscating when necessary, land illegally acquired, or not administered in accordance with the national welfare. It is therefore directed in the first instance against the Jewish companies which speculate in land.

Adolf Hitler, April 13th ,1928

(Roman Catholic) Goebbels:

We shall only be able to combat the falsehoods abroad if we get at those who originated them or at those Jews living in Germany who have thus far remained unmolested. We must therefore, proceed to a large scale boycott of all Jewish business in Germany.

Perhaps the foreign Jews will think better of the matter when their racial comrades in Germany begin to get it in the neck.

That's in March 1933.

Goering:

I will ruthlessly set the police at work whenever harm is being done to the German people,. But I refuse to make the police the guardians of Jewish department stores.

11th March 1933, speech at Essen.

Looting, physical attacks on Jews and antisemitic outbursts in the press followed.

Date of the Nazi-Vatican Concordat ?

June, 1933. Were all the Catholics in Germany asleep from February 1920 to June 1933 ?

Yes, there's no difference between disliking someone and killing him.

'Disliking' someone ? What a peculiar way to describe Catholic antisemitism- dislike of Jews.

Disliked, all the way from Zagreb to Auschwitz.

You claim christianity is responsible for Holocaust

Why not just quote what I write, instead of paraphrasing ?

and RCC is to be blamed as well, right?

I call the Church to account for helping Hitler to power, for aiding the Nazis, Vichy and Ustasha, for abandoning Jews to murderous dictators. For giving aid to wanted war criminals, and helping murderers to escape justice- only because they were Catholic.

But You surely know it better, so tell me.

The way it goes is this: you claim something about Jabotynski, you back it up. Otherwise, I call bullsh!t on that.

I don't think RCC was aware it'd mean that

So cooperating with openly antisemitic parties wouldn't mean any harm coming to Jews. Dream on...

And we're talking about deals from the 30s!

June 1933 for the Nazi-Vatican Concordat. Right after Catholic priest Monsignor Kaas helps Hitler to unlimited power.

And after a series of violent outbursts against Jews and Jewish businesses orchestrated by the Nazi Party and the S.A. .

Must have been particularly dense, that Monsignor Kaas and the rest of the German Catholic hierarchy... And Pius XII for that matter...

No, double-standarts, bias and manipulations.

Big words and unproved bullsh!t .

Would Denmark save its Jews if there were 100000 of them?

If they had the moral principles to save 1 500 foreign refugee Jews, why not ?

I wasn't aware morality operated on a numbers basis.

Perhaps you should address your question to a modern day Dane.

I am not (disparaging the Danish rescue of Jews)

Are too:

Would Denmark save its Jews if there were 100000 of them?

Its jewish population was tiny, and it only helped danish jews

Your words.

what did You mean by posting that?

Exactly what I said.

You're wrong again in any case:

How ? Sweden was still trading with Nazi Germany and was still only one country.

You have to do it to know the circumstances.

Only if you also mention widepsread Catholic antisemitism in the relevant countries, pre-1939.

That would be putting 'it' in context properly.

again I say - a proof, please

Say what you like. You're the one making unsupported assertions- as you originally did about Denmark's rescue of foreign Jews.

You're not referring to my points.

No, you're being obtuse.

Assimilated Jews in mainly Catholic countries (France, Hungary, Croatia, Slovakia) didn't escape just because they didn't look like Hassids.

I'll gather quotes of You later on and post them to prove that wrong, don't have time right now

Do I care ? No.

Prove me wrong.

I have done, on more than one occasion and more than one topic.

You're mistaking Pius XI and Pius XII

No I'm not.

I have to read and correct and rebut a large amount of your badly argued and poorly expressed text in a relatively short time.

Occasionally and unsurprisingly, I'll misread something- in this case a 'XI' for a 'XII' .

Not as great an error as your strange notions about Danish geography and history...

And what's wrong in that? (diplomatic agreements between the Vatican and Hitler and Mussolini)

Why stop there ?

Why not have Stalin to tea, give Pol Pot a bed for the night, have someone run a bath for Idi Amin.

And if a few million non-Catholics should get killed in the meantime- well, there weren't going to be any donations for church organ funds from them, were there ?

[VetLegion]

Antisemitism had had no tradition in Serbia, but during the 1930s it began to seep in from Croatia,which had long been virulently antisemitic.

Nope, antisemitism had zero tradition in Croatia until it was imported by the fascist collaborators, which was 10.04.1941.

If you can provide any evidence about Croatia being virulently antisemitic prior to WWII I'd be glad to read it.

[Arrian]

Did those fascist collaborators appear magically from nowhere? If not, it would seem there was anti-semitism in Croatia pre-1941. Of course, that hardly makes Croatia unique...

-Arrian

[VetLegion]

Of course, pulling conclusions out of your ass hardly makes you unique...

[Arrian]

Certainly not on this forum, no. However, I don't see that I've done that here. .

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Here is a source that disagrees with Molly's re: antisemitism in Croatia:

http://www.axt.org.uk/antisem/archive/archive2/croatia/croatia.htm

There is no significant tradition of grassroots antisemitism in the former Yugoslav federation. In the 1930s and, during the Second World War, antisemitism, especially of the racial variety, remained a Nazi 'import' that never became deeply rooted in the country. Under the pro-Nazi Ustasa regime in the Independent State of Croatia many thousands of Serbs, Jews and Roma perished in concentration camps.

This source, however, backs Molly's:

http://www.ceu.hu/jewishstudies/pdf/02_goldstein.pdf

I'd pull the relevant bits, but it's a PDF...

My point was that the quisling regime was a bunch of local fascists who came to power in 1941, aligning themselves with the Nazis and they may have been anti-semites pre-1941 (they clearly were from 1941 on). If that was so, anti-semitism was not "imported" in 1941. I suppose it's possible that the quislings were not actually anti-semites, but rather just fascists who wanted to beat on Serbs or something, but based on the info in the second link I rather doubt it.

-Arrian

[Heresson]

Originally posted by molly bloom
It abandoned parliamentary Catholic conservative parties in France, Germany and Italy, preferring to make deals with the German Nazi Party (not Catholic) and the Italian Fascists.

Did they have a possibility of concluding concordates with catholic parties?

Furthermore, a Catholic priest was head of state of Slovakia and the Catholic hierarchy cooperated with forced conversions in Croatia- along with much else besides.

That's sad. But did they think of Holocaust on their own, or were they pressured to enabling it by Hitler?

Are you really this obtuse ? A thirteen year old antisemitic party programme, attacks on Jews in the street, in public life, blaming the Jews for Germany losing World War One, antisemitic actions of Freikorps members in Catholic Bavaria...

Shameful indeed, but it's not holocaust yet.

Not only did the Catholic Church in Germany and the Vatican know about Hitler's and the Nazis' antisemitic tenets, they helped him and them to attain the power to carry them out.

Prove that they knew that Hitler was bent on exterminating them.

I'm using 'Vatican' where someone would use 'Germany' for German government. That, I would have thought, was clear.

No. That's a difference. Vatican is a state, Holy See is not, but it is what is called in polish "podmiot prawa miêdzynarodowego". Sorry, I don't know the english term. Holy See and Vatican are in union, but are not the same. Vatican is a territorial state, Holy See is a ppm, though it's not territorial.

Don't be facetious and irrelevant:
N.S.D.A.P. Party programme, February 1920.

Interesting indeed, and horrible, but there's no mention of exterminating Jews here. Again I remind You that RCC has condemned racism. Too late, but still.

Why not just quote what I write, instead of paraphrasing ?

More writing

I call the Church to account for helping Hitler to power, for aiding the Nazis, Vichy and Ustasha, for abandoning Jews to murderous dictators. For giving aid to wanted war criminals, and helping murderers to escape justice- only because they were Catholic.

Then You're right, but You're too one-sided. RCC did - intentionally or not - much harm, but also much good.

The way it goes is this: you claim something about Jabotynski, you back it up. Otherwise, I call bullsh!t on that.

I pointed out a book I've found that information in. Read it

So cooperating with openly antisemitic parties wouldn't mean any harm coming to Jews. Dream on...

No, one could surmise it would deteriorate their standing, but I don't think anyone surmised it'd lead to Auschwitz. Bah, american Jewry, when informed by polish gouverment about Holocaust, didn't believe it.

June 1933 for the Nazi-Vatican Concordat. Right after Catholic priest Monsignor Kaas helps Hitler to unlimited power.

German-Holy See concordate.
Again, this was shameful, and a giant mistake, but do You think RCC knew that would lead to war or Holocaust?

Must have been particularly dense, that Monsignor Kaas and the rest of the German Catholic hierarchy... And Pius XII for that matter...

Pius XI

Big words and unproved bullsh!t .

See! I do learn from You!

If they had the moral principles to save 1 500 foreign refugee Jews, why not ?

Because saving 100000 Jews would be impossible, or hardly possible.

Your words.

I am just saying that this kind of - heroic and worth admiration - behaviour was possible in certain conditions. Also, that even Denmark wasn't crystal clean.

Exactly what I said.

I do not understand what was the point of writing that. I think You were wrong, that You weren't aware of that Sweden announced help in saving Jews, and are now trying to cover it up.

Only if you also mention widepsread Catholic antisemitism in the relevant countries, pre-1939.

I may agree with that.

Say what you like. You're the one making unsupported assertions- as you originally did about Denmark's rescue of foreign Jews.

a proof, please.

Assimilated Jews in mainly Catholic countries (France, Hungary, Croatia, Slovakia) didn't escape just because they didn't look like Hassids.

I actually have a problem understanding this sentence.
They didn't escape because they didn't look like Hassids?
Sorry, please explain. Thank You.

I have done, on more than one occasion and more than one topic.

As did I when it comes to You.

No I'm not.

I have to read and correct and rebut a large amount of your badly argued and poorly expressed text in a relatively short time.

Occasionally and unsurprisingly, I'll misread something- in this case a 'XI' for a 'XII' .

Misread or miswrite?
Anyway, You attribute to ONE pope, be it Pius XI or Pius XII, actions done by both Pius XI and Pius XII. And that is a huge mistake.

Not as great an error as your strange notions about Danish geography and history...

I know danish geography well.

Why not have Stalin to tea, give Pol Pot a bed for the night, have someone run a bath for Idi Amin.

And if a few million non-Catholics should get killed in the meantime- well, there weren't going to be any donations for church organ funds from them, were there ?

Didn't the Allies ally themselves with Stalin?

And ?

So they do not constitute a significant number of the ones saved.

Why ? Jews, including religious Jews, fled to safety in an atheist Communist country. So much for 'Christian' charity...

And where were they supposed to escape too

Very nice, but we're not talking about survival training.

Jews hiding in the forests and swamps either needed help from local villagers, or were forced to rob them - which they've been sometimes doing and which didn't make the villagers more willing to help them.

What did Catholic Croatia and Slovakia do?

what did protestand Norway do? What did mostly protestant Netherlands do?

You mentioned that first, belittling the Danish rescue of Jews:

In a different context, that is of technical ability of Denmark to save its Jews.

Sure of that are you ?

No, that is not obvious. People often forget about it.

For what crime ?

Biasphemy

You've remembered incorrectly then

I do remember it well. Someone's said west Ukraine is Roman Catholic, to which I've replied with description of actual state of matters. Then You came claiming entire western and central Ukraine are greek-catholic, completely unable to accept my point that Russia destroyed greek-catholic church in the lands it's got after partages of Poland, and it's only survived in Galicia and Lodomeria, perhaps also in Bukovina and Transcarpathia.

Even allowing for the fact that you're not privy to details of my private life, I have to inform you that I have not left the Catholic Church, nor am I an excommunicate nor have I been anathematized.

You are aware that there are things You get excommunicated for automatically?

[Sirotnikov]

this has easily become the most boring thread ever.

it was really great before though.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by VetLegion

Antisemitism had had no tradition in Serbia, but during the 1930s it began to seep in from Croatia,which had long been virulently antisemitic.

Nope, antisemitism had zero tradition in Croatia until it was imported by the fascist collaborators, which was 10.04.1941.

Not true.

The Magyars in the Empire of Austria-Hungary, lacking a genuine middle class of their own, made use of assimilated Jews.

Unsurprisingly, the Yiddish speaking Jews were associated with both the German speaking aristocracy of the Habsburgs and the Magyar overlords.

I'd suggest Elizabeth Wiskemann's 'Europe Of The Dictators', 'Fascism In Europe' edited by S. J. Woolf and 'The Fall Of The House of Habsburg' by Edward Crankshaw.

A similar pattern of Catholic antisemitism was present in rural Slovakia, even during Habsburg times.

Because the Jews were Yiddish or German speakers it was also felt they were not sympathetic towards nationalists- be they Czech, Slovak or Croat.

Under the Habsburgs, Catholic though they were, the Jews were safer because they were protected by Imperial edicts.

I'm not suggesting that the folk-religious antisemitism was anything like as virulent as the racial and religious form created by the Ustasha.

Did they have a possibility of concluding concordates with catholic parties?

Heresson

I've no real idea why you keep harping on about this. I've outlined what the Roman Catholic Church did- abandoned existing democratic Catholic conservative parties- in France, in Italy and in Germany.

Having abandoned those Catholic parties which were participants in parliamentary democracies, the Church at first approached an openly antisemitic party in France, Action Francaise , hoping to influence it and gain some power in France.

It concluded a concordat with Fascist Party in Italy headed by an avowed atheist.

It instructed the Catholic Party in Germany to use its votes to secure the majority needed to provide Hitler with dictatorial powers.

Clear enough ?

But did they think of Holocaust on their own,

Irrelevant.

Shameful indeed, but it's not holocaust yet.

I see. The Catholic Church should only take action when large numbers of Jews have been killed, is that your suggestion ?

Funny, Cardinal Faulhaber felt sufficiently moved to criticise the Weimar Republic's legality (!) by describing its creation in November 1918 as characterized by: 'perjury and high treason'.*

This was the same democratic Weimar Republic which granted greater freedoms and latitude of action to the Catholic Church in Germany than had existed under the Hohenzollerns.

Over a thousand new Catholic settlements were created during Weimar's existence.

* 'Germany, 2000 Years' by K. F. Reinhardt

Prove that they knew that Hitler was bent on exterminating them.

As in were they aware of Hitler's existence, were they able to read 'Mein Kampf', had any Catholics been to Nazi Party mass rallies or public lectures ?

1930, the Vicar-General of Mainz had this to say:

...although it was un-Christian to hate other races, he concurred with Hitler's evaluation of the Jewish influence in the Press, Theatre, and Literature.

So they knew about Hitler's opinions of Jews.

Further- the Nazis then went on to recognise 7 Catholic feast days as national holidays.

Bishop Burger had this to say:

The aims of the Reich government have long been those of the Catholic Church.

Even better- Bishop Groeber of Freiburg showed his approval of Nazi antisemitism by comparing it with the Jesuits' policy of excluding applicants to the order who had Jewish ancestry.

Better yet- Bishop Berning of Osnabruck preached obedience and loyalty to the state when visiting concentration camps in his diocese.

Makes for a good comparison with Cardinal Faulhaber's attitude towards the Weimar Republic, don't you think ?

Good old Cardinal Faulhaber- in one of his Advent sermons of 1933, he expressed his surprise that :

...the Old Testament with its condemnations of usurious land-grabbing and of the farmer's oppression by debt should be a product of the spirit of Israel.

Very ecumenical.

Still, Bishop Groeber certainly knew which way the wind was blowing. In his 'Manual Of Contemporary Religious Questions' he helpfully defined Bolshevism for his flock as:

an Asiatic despotism in the service of a group of terrorists led by Jews.

Clearly much worse than a Western European dictatorship in the service of murderers led by a lapsed Catholic....

The German Catholic 'Klerusblatt justified the Nuremberg Race Laws of 1936 as:

..indispensable safeguards for the qualitative make-up of the German people.

Ah, so they were just 'safeguards'.

Cardinal Bertram after the treaty-breaking Anschluss with Austria, had this to say:

Now we are truly a People's Church.

He was happy because his sect had just acquired a few more million adherents. Pity about those outbreaks of violent antisemitism and attacks on political opponents of the Nazis, but he had to get his priorities right...

Interesting indeed, and horrible, but there's no mention of exterminating Jews here.

I would have thought antisemitism itself was enough. Again, how many Jews had to die before an alliance with the Nazi Party was reprehensible ?

You keep harping on about extermination of the Jews, but part of the German Right Wing's activities included assassination of Jews, including Rosa Luxemburg and Kurt Eisner and the assimilated Jew, Walther Rathenau.

Hitler only disavowed terrorist acts when it was politic to do so. The violent record of his party and its members and its attitude towards individual Jews and Jews en masse, was clear.

Again I remind You that RCC has condemned racism.

I have faith in deeds, not words.

Then You're right, but You're too one-sided.

I disagree- the Roman Catholic Church aided Hitler and Mussolini to power and collaborated with Fascist regimes in Italy, Croatia and Slovakia- the latter headed by a priest.

Individual efforts by Catholics during the war do not make up for what the Church's political actions helped bring about.

Nor do they excuse the efforts made to hide perpetrators of war crimes and crimes against humanity from justice.

Why do Catholics deserve preferential treatment when it comes to mass murder ?

I pointed out a book I've found that information in. Read it

No, you call for 'proofs', you provide 'em first.

No, one could surmise it would deteriorate their standing, but I don't think anyone surmised it'd lead to Auschwitz.

Possibly because deliberate mass extermination of a people and culture on such a large scale had never been attempted before.

In Tsarist Russia pogroms were often unplanned limited outbursts against isolated communities. The technology and infrastructure for mass extermination was lacking.

Bah, american Jewry, when informed by polish gouverment about Holocaust, didn't believe it.

Who would have believed that such a place, dedicated to mass extermination on an unprecedented scale, could possibly be built by the people who had given the world Schiller, Bach and Durer ?

Again, this was shameful, and a giant mistake, but do You think RCC knew that would lead to war or Holocaust?

War ? Why not ? Hitler made no secret of his aim to extinguish 'Judaeo-Bolschewismus' as he called it.

Still, that would only have meant Jews and Commies being killed, so that would have been okay.

You keep droning on about the Church's ability or inability to foresee the Holocaust, as if this is a major hole in my argument.

It isn't.

Because saving 100000 Jews would be impossible, or hardly possible.

Boring. Numbers only matter to you when it's 20 (!) Jews deported from Denmark to Nazi Germany.

When the Danes save thousands of Jews you treat it as if all of the population in Nazi occupied Europe were all saving as many Jews as they could.

Unfortunately they weren't.

Nor did the governments of occupied countries expend nearly as much effort as the Danish government did on the Jews who were deported from its territory.

Also, that even Denmark wasn't crystal clean.

Not something I've claimed, but anything to diminish what the Lutheran Danes did....

I think You were wrong

Too bad.

a proof, please.

I've provided this what, twice, now ?


Here's where you say it:

Denmark ... Its jewish population was tiny, and it only helped danish jews - when it comes to the ones seeking help from other countries, they were left to die.

I disproved this.

It's estimated that 1 500 of the Jews resident in Denmark were recent refugees from Nazi Germany, Austria and Czechoslovakia.

Figures from Lucy Dawidowicz's 'War Against The Jews 1933-1945', as well as numerous Danish and Jewish websites.

This is, I think, the third time of writing this or something like it.


Aren't you grateful I don't take the same approach to your unsupported assertions ?

Sorry, please explain. Thank You.

You implied that it was more difficult for Eastern Europeans to save Jews as the Danes did because Danish Jews were assimilated or did not resemble Hassidic Jews.

I pointed out that being assimilated did not save Jews in Hungary, Croatia, Czechoslovakia, France, Germany, Austria... and it still holds true.

As did I when it comes to You.

Boring.

And that is a huge mistake.

If you want to believe that, and it makes you happy, do I care ? No.

Didn't the Allies ally themselves with Stalin?

Political expediency. I wasn't aware that the Allies, being those awful things known as liberal democracies and not religious organisations, were under quite the same moral obligations as Christ's Vicar on Earth and his underlings.

When did the Allies join with Stalin ?

Before or after Jews had died at Nazi hands ?

So they do not constitute a significant number of the ones saved.

I'm really unsure what more you expected the Danes to do- defeat the Nazis on their own ?

Liberate Auschwitz ? You're being absurd.

And where were they supposed to escape too

Clearly not to 'Christian' Catholic Poland or Croatia or Slovakia.

I'm glad you find the prospect of Jews having to flee from Christians to atheists so funny.

what did protestand Norway do? What did mostly protestant Netherlands do?

I fail to see why you keep asking me questions. I'm not here to educate you- however much it may be required.

Provide your own analysis of the situation for Jews under Nazi occupation in the Netherlands and Norway.

In a different context, that is of technical ability of Denmark to save its Jews.

You ignored the changed situation in Denmark- replacement of a Reich functionary with an S.S. member as Reich Plenipotentiary. The occupation by the German army, the disarming of the Danish forces, the imprisonment of the King and the imminent introduction of measures to deport the Jews of Denmark to extermination camps.

You also claimed that it was possible to see Sweden from Denmark- and so it was, for members of the occupying Wehrmacht as much as for any Danish civilians.

Biasphemy

Wrong. He had not blasphemed. Had he blasphemed, the Jewish faith, the Jewish authorities could have executed him themselves.

He suffers a death at Roman hands, by Roman order, for a crime against Rome- not against the Roman's client ruler, and not against the Jewish religious authorities.

I do remember it well. Someone's said west Ukraine is Roman Catholic, to which I've replied with description of actual state of matters. Then You came claiming entire western and central Ukraine are greek-catholic,

If that's what you truly 'remember', then I feel very sorry for you.

You are aware that there are things You get excommunicated for automatically?

I have a better understanding of excommunication than you, I think.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by VetLegion
If you can provide any evidence about Croatia being virulently antisemitic prior to WWII I'd be glad to read it.

It may depend on the definition of 'virulent', but a Jewish physician from Belgrade in WW2 wrote that anti-Semitism in Croatia did precede the war.

Source: Letter written by a Jewish physician, a professor in the Department of Medicine in the University of Belgrade, to a friend in London on his escape from Yugoslavia in 1942. As the writer is a Jew, for the sake of relatives who remain in Yugoslavia his name cannot be used.



“‘During Yugoslavia’s twenty-three years of existence, Serbia has always professed the free democratic tradition existing in the former Kingdom of Serbia. There in the nineteenth century, and later in the twentieth, the Jews always had full civic rights and complete equality with their Serbian compatriots. This equality was not only granted in various constitutions of the Kingdom of Serbia and later of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, but it was also a true expression of the relationship between the Orthodox Serbs and the Jews in their everyday contact.

...

“‘In this regard Serbia completely differed from Croatia under Dr. Machek and the district governor or Ban, Shubashich. In Croatia anti-Semitism was inherited from Austria-Hungary. Anti-Semitic centers had always existed. Dr. Shuba****ch’s Croatia had even prepared elaborate laws and regulations just before the war broke out in Yugoslavia in 1941. A large part of the industries in Jewish hands in Croatia was to be confiscated and nationalized. Anti-Semitism was particularly stressed in Croatia by the right wing of Dr. Machek’s Croatian Peasant Party.

From 'The Serbs choose war', Ruth Mitchell
Published by: Garden City; New York; 1943
extract from pp 260-264

Ruth Mitchell was the sister of General Billy Mitchell, founder of the U.S. Air Force. She had been in Yugoslavia during World War Two.

[Cort Haus]

wrt another catholic country - Ireland, a recent series of documentaries on the History Channel ISTR, gave numerous examples of Nazi collaborators across Europe who were given sanctuary in Ireland after the war.

[Dinner]

So have we decided that the Joos control the world yet?

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by Cort Haus

It may depend on the definition of 'virulent', but a Jewish physician from Belgrade in WW2 wrote that anti-Semitism in Croatia did precede the war.

If you're interested in finding out more, I suggest you download the .pdf Arrian posted. It's by a well known Croatian historian of Jewish descent. He's the authority on history of Jews in Croatia.

The article confirms what I have written: there is/was no such thing as a tradition of antisemitism in Croatia.

[VetLegion]

In this regard Serbia completely differed from Croatia under Dr. Machek and the district governor or Ban, Shubashich. In Croatia anti-Semitism was inherited from Austria-Hungary. Anti-Semitic centers had always existed. Dr. Shuba****ch’s Croatia had even prepared elaborate laws and regulations just before the war broke out in Yugoslavia in 1941.

Not Croatia but Yugoslavia not only prepared but adopted laws against Jews, in an effort to "befriend" nazi Germany. From the .pdf article:

In February 1939 Dragiša Cvetkovic, the new prime minister, received representatives of the Union of
Jewish Religious Communities and said that ‘there is no reason for any kind of anxiety’. [56] However, in September–October 1940 the Yugoslav government passed two laws, that is,‘two decrees restricting the rights ofthe Jews’. The first was called the ‘Decree on Measures Concerning Jews and the Performance of Activities with Items of Human Nutrition’, which in fact banned all wholesale enterprises dealing in foodstuffs whose
owners or co-owners were Jews. The second was called the ‘Decree on the Enrolment of Persons of Jewish Descent at the University, Secondary School, Teacher Training College and Other Vocational Schools’, which introduced a numerus clausus for Jews.