UK accuses Russian of murdering ex-KGB spy

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Serb is a liar.

A lame and feeble snipette, even by your standards.

This murder is not the open-and-shut case that the Russophobe trolls are making it out to be, but bear-baiting is such high fashion in the west these days, that I'm not surprised at the prevailing wind.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
A lame and feeble snipette, even by your standards.

He's the one that said he was leaving this thread yet here he is.

[Cort Haus]

He didn't say when, though.

[Serb]

True

[Cort Haus]

Here's an article by a Russian academic in London, Julia Svetlichnaja on why British commentators are so keen to find Russia itself guilty of the dissident's murder.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Serb
My words were directed to DD and Co, not you.

I'm sorry. Don't take it personally.

Ahhh, that's ok! Sorry, I misttok what you meant.

Originally posted by Serb
The answer is Boris Berezovsky.

I do see your point, but we lack any evidence to link Berezovsky. Moreover, if you're saying Lugavoi being an ex-friend made him less likely to kill him, Berezovsky being a current friend surely would too. Indeed, I reckon Litvineko was probably more value alive to Berezovsky.

I don't think it was a KGB or FSB assassination, else they would have used an agent, not an ex-agent. I think it was a personal thing, either directed by Putin or somoneone else. I think Lugavoi, if he did do it, was a pawn. Litvineko had been damaging to Putin, and I think it's more a case of Putin's ego wanting to show Litvineko that he could get him anywhere.

However that's all speculation. So many options can seem plausible when you argue them, that we must look at the evidence. I agree with the court that there seems to be enough evidence to try Lugavoi (we don't even know the details of all of it, as it has not been made public, but it was included in the extradition request), and see if the evidence against him does remove all reasonable doubt.

Also, on the brainwashing, while I accept that to some eyes the press here could be seen to be anti-Putin, surely you accept at least as much the same the other way with regards to Berezovsky.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
Here's an article by a Russian academic in London, Julia Svetlichnaja on why British commentators are so keen to find Russia itself guilty of the dissident's murder.

Admittedly I do have an anti-Russia stance, but that's more because a couple of my closest friends are Russian, and the one who still lives there is very critical of how it's run, both the overall way the government is run as well as the culture of bribery and corruption on the ground. However I don't think Russia is to blame of Litvineko's death. I think it may be a Putin or other official-backed killing (although it may not be), but even that isn't an inditement against Russia, just against Putin.

Russia, from what my friends tell me, doesn't conform to normal Western rules. The size of the country makes governance very hard, and therefore the government all but nonexistent in places. It has huge numbers of people in poverty, and an economic system that had such strong ties to communism that it takes a long time for it to adapt to a capitalist structure. Corruption and bribery are necessary evils to keep the country moving, that if removed too quickly could case havoc. Russia is a developed country in terms of the technology and military ability it has at the top, at the government level and among richer people, but the huge disparity of income means most of the country cannot be described as a developed, capitalist nation. This means that commonly accepted Western rules and standards do not apply. It explains why it can have a fair and decent justice system but still have torture and beatings in prison, why it can have huge conglomorates and massive international business deals and yet still have the prospect of the entire project being scrapped due to government involvement or more local corruption issues.

This makes Russia a special case, and so, from what I can see, the rest of the world is never quite sure what stance to take with it.

[Saras]

Originally posted by Drogue

Admittedly I do have an anti-Russia stance, but that's more because a couple of my closest friends are Russian, and the one who still lives there is very critical of how it's run, both the overall way the government is run as well as the culture of bribery and corruption on the ground. However I don't think Russia is to blame of Litvineko's death. I think it may be a Putin or other official-backed killing (although it may not be), but even that isn't an inditement against Russia, just against Putin.

Russia, from what my friends tell me, doesn't conform to normal Western rules. The size of the country makes governance very hard, and therefore the government all but nonexistent in places. It has huge numbers of people in poverty, and an economic system that had such strong ties to communism that it takes a long time for it to adapt to a capitalist structure. Corruption and bribery are necessary evils to keep the country moving, that if removed too quickly could case havoc. Russia is a developed country in terms of the technology and military ability it has at the top, at the government level and among richer people, but the huge disparity of income means most of the country cannot be described as a developed, capitalist nation. This means that commonly accepted Western rules and standards do not apply. It explains why it can have a fair and decent justice system but still have torture and beatings in prison, why it can have huge conglomorates and massive international business deals and yet still have the prospect of the entire project being scrapped due to government involvement or more local corruption issues.

This makes Russia a special case, and so, from what I can see, the rest of the world is never quite sure what stance to take with it.

Nice summary

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Cort Haus


A lame and feeble snipette, even by your standards.

This murder is not the open-and-shut case that the Russophobe trolls are making it out to be, but bear-baiting is such high fashion in the west these days, that I'm not surprised at the prevailing wind.

I cant speak for dinodoc, but I havent said its an open and shut case. I havent seen a copy of the indictment - is that public record in UK? I dont even know if it would be public record in the USA.

But it IS an indictment only, and from what I can gather there is quite enough evidence to justify an indictment (my assumption being that standards are similar for that in the UK to the US)

The reaction of the govt of Russia and its supporters, not merely on Russian constitutional issues, but the broad accusations against the UK govt, the attempt to make excuses by comparing it to far different cases, the general sense of outrage, is over the top. That, as much as anything, has convinced me that Putin definitely doesnt want Lugovoi on trial in the UK, not out of a deep concern for miscarriage of justice, but out of a fear of what Lugovoi might say if he turned "states evidence" ("crown's evidence"?)


Thats been true on issue after issue, where the govt of Russia starts with an issue of justifiable concern and turns it into a perceived western conspiracy against Mother Russia. I could see them wanting more detailed info about the missile defense. The level of outrage, the outright dismissal of the possibility that it is directed against Iran, implies that its about something else. Ditto for Estonia. Ditto indeed for Ukraine, where small sums of money spent on teaching people how to run a voter registration drive and the like was turned into a conspiracy for a revolution, in Russian perceptions.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
but out of a fear of what Lugovoi might say if he turned "states evidence" ("crown's evidence"?)

Queen's evidence.

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Thats been true on issue after issue, where the govt of Russia starts with an issue of justifiable concern and turns it into a perceived western conspiracy against Mother Russia. I could see them wanting more detailed info about the missile defense. The level of outrage, the outright dismissal of the possibility that it is directed against Iran, implies that its about something else. Ditto for Estonia. Ditto indeed for Ukraine, where small sums of money spent on teaching people how to run a voter registration drive and the like was turned into a conspiracy for a revolution, in Russian perceptions.

Well put That's what I fear as well. Russia needs to realise that not everyone is out to get it, but that when it comes to international issues, if they want it their way, they're going to have to be a bit more transparent about it.

[Saras]

Originally posted by lord of the mark

Thats been true on issue after issue, where the govt of Russia starts with an issue of justifiable concern and turns it into a perceived western conspiracy against Mother Russia. I could see them wanting more detailed info about the missile defense. The level of outrage, the outright dismissal of the possibility that it is directed against Iran, implies that its about something else. Ditto for Estonia. Ditto indeed for Ukraine, where small sums of money spent on teaching people how to run a voter registration drive and the like was turned into a conspiracy for a revolution, in Russian perceptions.

Another nice summary.