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Why Giuliani is Unqualified to be Prez

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  • #91
    But you get that by making fuel more expensive. You give the consumer an incentive to buy a smaller or more fuel efficient vehicle.
    For the record, I'm in favor of higher gas taxes. I'm just looking to tackle the problem from multiple directions is all.

    I'm generally anti-subsidies. I might be ok with them for alternative energy. But I also might be wrong...

    -Arrian
    grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

    The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by Arrian


      In this example, Joe makes out like a bandit, yeah. However, there aren't many Joes out there right now (like I said, solar power is a tiny itty bitty piece of our energy generation). The idea is to get more Joes.
      There are hundreds of paper mills that have burnt scrap lumber for a long time, I think. And heat pumps, a form of geothermal, are widespread. Alts are rare only if we are limited in how we define alts.

      And thats the problem. A program of subsidies would have to go through searching for, evaluating and classifying every single alt. A tax does that on auto pilot, so to speak. Every alt is helped, whether youve thought of it or not.
      "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by lord of the mark


        1. What european neighborhood in 1895 was denser than the Lower East Side of Manhattan? None, I think.

        2. Land between cities is only relevant to intercity transportation, which is relatively unimportant in terms of transit usage, here or in Europe.
        1. Probably true.
        2. Really? Unimportant?

        -Arrian
        grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

        The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

        Comment


        • #94
          There are hundreds of paper mills that have burnt scrap lumber for a long time, I think. And heat pumps, a form of geothermal, are widespread. Alts are rare only if we are limited in how we define alts.

          And thats the problem. A program of subsidies would have to go through searching for, evaluating and classifying every single alt. A tax does that on auto pilot, so to speak. Every alt is helped, whether youve thought of it or not.
          Fair point.

          -Arrian
          grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

          The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Arrian


            For the record, I'm in favor of higher gas taxes. I'm just looking to tackle the problem from multiple directions is all.

            I'm generally anti-subsidies. I might be ok with them for alternative energy. But I also might be wrong...

            -Arrian
            Im not sure why multiple directions is a good thing here. If you make the price of fuel high enough, you get the optimal result, and subsidies would push you too far towards alts (im assuming that importing less oil has a finite value, per gallon) For any level of savings you hope to achieve, all tax is almost certainly more efficient than any combination of taxes and subsidies. Now a mix MAY be necessary (as with transit today) because fully taxing the real social costs of oil usage is not politically feasible. But my attempt to persuade you is itself an attempt to act on the issues of political feasibility.
            "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

            Comment


            • #96
              Hows about we subsidize alt energy and pay for the subsidies by taxing oil?

              -Arrian
              grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

              The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by Arrian


                1. Probably true.
                2. Really? Unimportant?

                -Arrian
                2004 - USA - rail passenger miles = 5.5 million
                transit "Car miles" = 48 million (i dont have passenger miles for transit handy, but obviously theres more than one per vehicle)

                Intercity bus would add to the intercity total, but not enough to bring it close to transit.

                People commute twice a day (to oversimplify) despite longer distances in intercity transport, intrametropolitan movement is much larger.
                "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
                  Ecthy is a neocon.
                  What I said wasn't neocon. More like political realism.

                  Noone needs the royal houses or the Baath / similar worldly governments over there. Moderate Islamists would guarantee stability. As far as human rights go, those societies have to find their idea of a just state for themselves. We can force them to have elections and checks-and-balances, but we cannot force them to respect their women.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Arrian
                    Hows about we subsidize alt energy and pay for the subsidies by taxing oil?

                    -Arrian
                    if you tax oil at precisely one half its "real social cost" that would be the solution. Taxing it at its full social cost and not subsidizing anything (unless theres some other externality involved) would be preferred, if its politically feasible.
                    "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by lord of the mark

                      Look, the notion is that importing oil is something that imposes a cost on us all, its using a 'resource' in a sense. So the consumer should pay for it.
                      At a cost of reduced economic activity, CAFE standards albeit imposed automakers and the their suppliers would not necessarily cause a reduction in transportational activities as you alluded to yourself.

                      Its a cake and eat it too arguement.
                      "Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson

                      “In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter

                      Comment


                      • Moderate Islamists
                        ? Which ones would they be?

                        -Arrian
                        grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                        The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe


                          At a cost of reduced economic activity, CAFE standards albeit imposed automakers and the their suppliers would not necessarily cause a reduction in transportational activities as you alluded to yourself.

                          Its a cake and eat it too arguement.
                          Conserving on grammar now, are we?
                          "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

                          Comment


                          • I would like to suggest we subsidize basic economics classes for everyone.
                            "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

                            Comment


                            • Arrian - those that call for the destruction of Israel but don't actually send people to blow themselves up.

                              Don't ask for names, but you can't tell me that all people in those masses that are out in demonstrations are willing only to kill kill kill. There must be something in between those now cooperating with the west (which are a minority) and those extremist Jihadist who are absolutely uncapable of cooperating (also a minority). I'm not an expert on the Middle East but kill-kill-kill can hardly be a consensus among millions of human beings living in cities.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by lord of the mark


                                There are hundreds of paper mills that have burnt scrap lumber for a long time, I think. And heat pumps, a form of geothermal, are widespread. Alts are rare only if we are limited in how we define alts.

                                And thats the problem. A program of subsidies would have to go through searching for, evaluating and classifying every single alt. A tax does that on auto pilot, so to speak. Every alt is helped, whether youve thought of it or not.
                                Save that going after oil in specifity targets by far and away the transportational sector not the electricity or industrial sectors. I should add my goal is an attempt to reduce foregin dependence with a minimum effect on teh economy. CAFE seems appropriate whilst increased transportional cost via taxation to encourage alternative sources seem much too long to allow the market to work itself out.

                                Truth be told the timeline to make fleets with higher standards seem a shorter time line than to re-engineer and develop alternative fuels and then have to re-engineer fleet to take advantage of them anyway.


                                Besides those alts that have been established and in use are not what you are trying to encourage. You are trying to encourage alts that have yet to be put into the mainstream or discourage the social/environmental costs of alternatives such as..... nukes for electricity.
                                Last edited by Ogie Oglethorpe; May 17, 2007, 13:51.
                                "Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson

                                “In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter

                                Comment

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