Sarkozy DonnÉ Gagnant

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Barnabas
Spiffor, wtf was the thing Sarko mentioned of a mediterranean union with north africa? He wants more arabs/berbers in France?

I don't know any details of this precise proposal.

What he consistently talked about in the past 5 years, however, is:

- To curb illegal immirgration, it's important the the source countries develop (never mind that his "chosen immigration" intends to strip those same countries of their intelligentsia, and to deprive them from emigrated workers sending money home)

- To curb illegal immigration, it's important to have police agreements with the source countries.

- France needs much fewer unskilled immigrants, and definitely doesn't need non-working immigrants, like the workers' wives.


With this in mind, I imagine the mediterranean union would be: a place to discuss general political matters, make police agreements, increase free-trade and business opportunities, throw some aid-bones at uppity mediterranean governments.
It would be also a way to get rid of that pesky question of Turkey's EU membership.

In any case, I can't see a "mediterranean union" having something similar to the EU's freedom of movement, simply because no EU country wants a surge of immigrants coming inside (except maybe Ireland )

[Dry]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
French national pastime, car torching, continues

According to what I just heard half an hour ago on the (belgian) radio, even the french police - who is supposed to be pro-Sarko, right? - said they were anarchists, not leftists.

The riots of last night were initiated by anarchists movements.

Sorry for the left: no big bad police beating innocent protesters.
Sorry for the right: no big evil leftists 'not accepting' the result of a democratic vote.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Dry


According to what I just heard half an hour ago on the (belgian) radio, even the french police - who is supposed to be pro-Sarko, right? - said they were anarchists, not leftists.
.

Anarchists (as opposed to libertarians) are not leftists?

[Dry]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Anarchists (as opposed to libertarians) are not leftists?

Not that I am aware of.
Leftists want more rules, more rules... not exactly the program of anarchists.
But I think I should let Spiffor tells you more what he thinks of anarchists.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Dry

Not that I am aware of.
Leftists want more rules, more rules...

Thats hardly a universally accepted definition of "leftism".

[Last Conformist]

IME, anarchists usually consider themselves leftists.

[Kuciwalker]

See Ramo.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Dry

Not that I am aware of.
Leftists want more rules, more rules... not exactly the program of anarchists.
But I think I should let Spiffor tells you more what he thinks of anarchists.

Anarchists in France are generally associated with the far left. There are serious differences in doctrines, but many young (and not yet ideologically mature) members of those movements pick from both doctrines, because there are also many similarities:
The anarchists and the far left generally believe in violent struggle, and they believe in a utopian tomorrow.

Generally speaking, I'm glad to hear those were anarchists. I wouldn't want the tame far left (the LCR) to be at the source of the fight, since I still hope there'll be a broad alliance with them in the future.

[Dry]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Thats hardly a universally accepted definition of "leftism".

It wasn't a definition.
'Monkey wants banana' is no definition of monkey either, but remains true.

[lord of the mark]

[QUOTE] [SIZE=1] Originally posted by Dry [/

well than its empirically false. Anarchists are leftists, anarchists dont want more rules, ergo its not the case that all leftists want more rules.

Prove that wrong, without defining leftism in turns of wanting more rules.

[Dry]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by lord of the mark

[SIZE=1] Originally posted by Dry [/

well than its empirically false. Anarchists are leftists, anarchists dont want more rules, ergo its not the case that all leftists want more rules.

Prove that wrong, without defining leftism in turns of wanting more rules.

Wait, I'm not sure I understand what you mean...
What is empirically false?!?
According to me:
Anarchists are leftists was the question
anarchists dont want more rule was my statement
ergo its not the case that all leftists want more rules. here I'm lost. Is it your conclusion or what you think is MY conclusion?

[Sirotnikov]

I don't get the protesters against Sarkozy.

Really - I mean - what is the effing point? You just fu*king had an election, and it is quite clear who fu*king won.

So what is the purpose of the wild demonstrations against the democratic process? One of the rules of democracy is that you accept the popular vote.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
So what is the purpose of the wild demonstrations against the democratic process? One of the rules of democracy is that you accept the popular vote.

The reason I went there, and advertised the rally (before seeing how sucky it turned out), was because I wanted to show Sarkozy that his victory doesn't grant him the power to do whatever he wants.

Sarkozy has shown serious hints that he has a "cesarist" view of democracy, i.e that the elected leader has the legitimacy to do whatever he wants, until the voters throw him out.

I happen to believe in things like the rule of law and the respect of minorities. I have strong reasons to believe he doesn't share this idea, so I think he needs a strong weight and balances from the street.

If France had a parliament with balls like the UK, and media that aren't yes-men, there wouldn't be the same need of Street pressure on the leaders. Unfortunately, the French political system is so that there are almost no counter-power, and the Street fills that void.

[Victor Galis]

Why couldn't both candidates lose?

[Lawrence of Arabia]

actually i think his victory does give him the right to do whatever he wants - hes got one of the highest scores ever for a president of the 5th republic. as bush would say, hes got political capital, and he intends to spend it.
show me evidence where he said he is against minorities - he is one himself!
they are out there because they do not believe in the democratic process, they dont want to hear anyone else, and they want disproportionate power.