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  • #76
    I don't care if you screen everybody, and make 'em fly naked. It's an efficient security solution. Or screen nobody more than we did on 9/10, and take your chances. It's at least a consistent rationale, with an effectiveness proportionate to costs.

    To say we'll look at shoes and make everyone open their laptops and ban lighters, but we'll let cameras with flashes and certain other electronic devices on without special scrutiny, or to say we'll randomly check everyone without profiling, so that three middle eastern males with Saudi passports have the same chance of being screened as three Irish nuns, is ****ing absurd.

    Who said "limited" to brown people? "Focusing on" is not the same as "limited to." If there is specific intelligence developed that Irish nuns are now a potential threat axis for terrorist attacks on airliners, then throw Sister Mary and her henchwomen on the "brown" list.

    Meanwhile, *******s with prison records who converted to Islam in prison and changed their names and went to Pakistan should probably get a bit higher scrutiny than Sister Mary or your or my mothers. So should the nice, clean-shaven Saudi gent in his 30's.

    In other words, instead of throwing darts at a dartboard in the bottom of a coal mine at night while wearing a blindfold, concentrate inspections and extra security on those people who are in the same demographic groups as the known and anticipated threat axes.

    So yeah, we don't have white supremacist anti-ZOG militia nutjobs wanting to fly airplanes into buildings or drop them over the ocean. They have a different set of priorities - mostly jacking off over the next issue of SOF magazine.

    We do have almost exclusively middle-eastern and Indonesian Moslems who want to do that, however. Yes, they're making recruiting efforts outside their little group, but, gee whiz, we have intelligence agencies monitoring that, and revising threat assessments based on those efforts. God forbid that we should use that as the basis for prioritizing our security response, because we might offend someone who feels unfairly lumped in with the bad guys. Instead, to make everyone feel good about what a great country we are, we should just check people at random, so we can have waste, inconvenience and reduced security all shared equally among us.
    When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."

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    • #77
      "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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      • #78
        Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat or to say we'll randomly check everyone without profiling, so that three middle eastern males with Saudi passports have the same chance of being screened as three Irish nuns, is ****ing absurd.

        afaik folks with passports from countries considered risks are at higher chance of being selected. As are folks who fly one way, or in other ways fit the profile. Though they havent made public the basis for assigning selection probabilities. So how exactly do you know that Saudi passport holders dont have a higher chance of being selected?
        "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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        • #79
          "Meanwhile, *******s with prison records who converted to Islam in prison and changed their names and went to Pakistan should probably get a bit higher scrutiny than Sister Mary or your or my mothers."

          A 50 YO woman flying on a Saudi passport, named Fatima, or a 35 YO black male with a US passport, named Smith, who MAY have been in jail, and MAY have converted to Islam without changing his name? What if the 35 YO is flying on a one way ticket? Or is acting oddly? What if the 50 YO is flying with her (purported) grandchild?

          The irish nun case vs the 25 YO single male Saudi is the easy one, and the one pundits love, but its hardly the only think TSA has to deal with in their selection algorithm.
          "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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          • #80
            Originally posted by lord of the mark
            You seem to be the one implying that randomly selecting this judge was a mistake, so it would seem you think that white American 70 yo combat vets should be subject to zero selections.

            AFAIK there is already a much higher rate of selection for foreigners, and from select countries.
            Not zero, but maybe, one in ten million flights. A total waste either way, but a lower amount of waste. The "higher rate of selection" is reduced to a level that is felt will keep the PC police off of TSA's asses. Remember the initial process in the first few months after 9/11 and the profiling complaints?

            I do a fair amount of flying, and have seen a fair number of people selected for extra scrutiny. It's a joke, and just leads to longer lines for everyone, without any real effect on security.

            When I entered the line for a flight to Hawai'i a couple of months ago, I figured I could have easily taken out about 40 people in line for the security entry point with an explosive belt small enough to be easily concealable. They were so conveniently herded together, wrapped around and bunched up. Have my regulation size carry on bag containing an anti-personnel bomb, and the toll would have been way over 100.

            Not one bit of security for that, instead, by directive, a greater security threat is made and a lucrative target is created.

            Saw a similar situation at O'Hare last month - two hundred or so people bunched up, sorting themselves out to enter two sets of checkpoints, and one cop watching that area and whole lot of other pedestrian traffic through the concourse. Easy, unsecure, lucrative target.

            But we sure do check out all those shoes, though, 'cuz that's important.
            When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."

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            • #81
              Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


              Not zero, but maybe, one in ten million flights. A total waste either way, but a lower amount of waste. The "higher rate of selection" is reduced to a level that is felt will keep the PC police off of TSA's asses. Remember the initial process in the first few months after 9/11 and the profiling complaints?

              I do a fair amount of flying, and have seen a fair number of people selected for extra scrutiny. It's a joke, and just leads to longer lines for everyone, without any real effect on security.

              When I entered the line for a flight to Hawai'i a couple of months ago, I figured I could have easily taken out about 40 people in line for the security entry point with an explosive belt small enough to be easily concealable. They were so conveniently herded together, wrapped around and bunched up. Have my regulation size carry on bag containing an anti-personnel bomb, and the toll would have been way over 100.

              Not one bit of security for that, instead, by directive, a greater security threat is made and a lucrative target is created.

              Saw a similar situation at O'Hare last month - two hundred or so people bunched up, sorting themselves out to enter two sets of checkpoints, and one cop watching that area and whole lot of other pedestrian traffic through the concourse. Easy, unsecure, lucrative target.

              But we sure do check out all those shoes, though, 'cuz that's important.
              there are plenty of lines and crowds outside of airports. Obviously theres greater concern about something happening on an airplane - partly rational (cause planes can be flown into buildings, etc) partyly irrational (what could the shoe bomb have done but bring the plane down?) But people are irrational about civil aviation - how much coverage does a small plane crash that kills 5 people get, versus say an auto accident that kills 5 people?
              "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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              • #82
                Originally posted by lord of the mark
                afaik folks with passports from countries considered risks are at higher chance of being selected. As are folks who fly one way, or in other ways fit the profile. Though they havent made public the basis for assigning selection probabilities. So how exactly do you know that Saudi passport holders dont have a higher chance of being selected?
                The chance of being selected has been reduced (look at policy in the first 12 months after 9/11) due to complaints from several of those countries (obviously we don't give a rat's ass about what Syria or Iran has to say, but we listen a bit more to the Saudis and Pakistan). Are they more likely to get checked out than the Irish nun? Possibly, or even probably. Are they more likely to get checked out in proportion to the statistical probability of threat they may constitute, based on current threat assessments by US intelligence agencies? Given the public changes in the screening process in the last six years, probably not.
                When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


                  Not zero, but maybe, one in ten million flights. A total waste either way, but a lower amount of waste. The "higher rate of selection" is reduced to a level that is felt will keep the PC police off of TSA's asses. Remember the initial process in the first few months after 9/11 and the profiling complaints?

                  I do a fair amount of flying, and have seen a fair number of people selected for extra scrutiny.
                  Maybe they were traveling under foreign passports? You couldnt necessarily tell by looking at them. Would you be able to tell an Israeli passport holder? Should TSA attempt to tell apart Hebrew first names from Arabic ones? ("Moshe, thats ok, Moussa, not ok, Layla, hey, that could be either, what do we do?")
                  "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


                    The chance of being selected has been reduced (look at policy in the first 12 months after 9/11) due to complaints from several of those countries (obviously we don't give a rat's ass about what Syria or Iran has to say, but we listen a bit more to the Saudis and Pakistan). Are they more likely to get checked out than the Irish nun? Possibly, or even probably. Are they more likely to get checked out in proportion to the statistical probability of threat they may constitute, based on current threat assessments by US intelligence agencies? Given the public changes in the screening process in the last six years, probably not.
                    answer: you dont know what the probability of them getting checked is, nor do you know the statistical probability of the threat. Nor do you even deign to mention risk factors other than demographic charecteristics.
                    "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by lord of the mark


                      there are plenty of lines and crowds outside of airports. Obviously theres greater concern about something happening on an airplane - partly rational (cause planes can be flown into buildings, etc) partyly irrational (what could the shoe bomb have done but bring the plane down?) But people are irrational about civil aviation - how much coverage does a small plane crash that kills 5 people get, versus say an auto accident that kills 5 people?
                      Part of the OBL/AQ obsession with commercial aviation is its effect on commerce.

                      Taking out 100 people at an airport, and the security aftermath which follows, has a much great impact on national commerce than taking out 100 people at a movie theater.
                      When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by lord of the mark


                        answer: you dont know what the probability of them getting checked is, nor do you know the statistical probability of the threat. Nor do you even deign to mention risk factors other than demographic charecteristics.
                        Ah, so the only people qualified to even talk about this subject are those which hold the appropriate SCI clearances, and the rest of us can just trust in the perceived operations of our government, which is looking after our best interests.

                        Or, "gee, advocating random screening seems to paint me into a corner, so I'll throw up another strawman."

                        You're right, though. I can't calculate the statistical probability of a hijacking committed by a little old lady from Kansas traveling with Fifi, her toy poodle. I could take a wild-assed guess that it's got a lot of zeros to the right of the decimal point, though.
                        When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by lord of the mark
                          Maybe they were traveling under foreign passports? You couldnt necessarily tell by looking at them. Would you be able to tell an Israeli passport holder? Should TSA attempt to tell apart Hebrew first names from Arabic ones? ("Moshe, thats ok, Moussa, not ok, Layla, hey, that could be either, what do we do?")
                          The majority traveling under US passports or US drivers licenses, and caucasian. One looking Guatamalan or maybe southern Mexico/elsewhere in Central America with a lot of Mayan/influence, and looking like she'd never been on a plane before and was nervous. In other words, obvious candidate for scrutiny, albeit for other policy reasons.

                          Others too far away to see, or I didn't see them presenting ID, but still, vast majority caucasian, and by general appearance and demeanor, corn-fed Americans, although there could have been some sneaky Canuckistanians in there, which would have justified any extra security measures taken.
                          When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by lord of the mark


                            And we know thats all someone like him will ever engage in? How do we know that?
                            One would presume that the FBI (since they're primarily charged with domestic intelligence) would pay attention to the odd ramblings and musing of such groups. It's not like we had no indication in advance of AQ's obsession with airliner hijackings or with the WTC as a target. We just ignored good intel we already had, kind of like what you do when you "randomize" security to satisfy political correctness.
                            When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


                              Ah, so the only people qualified to even talk about this subject are those which hold the appropriate SCI clearances, and the rest of us can just trust in the perceived operations of our government, which is looking after our best interests.
                              No we cant trust them per se. But for all we know they could as easily be overweighting nationality as a factor as underweighting it. Your only evidence otherwise is the perceived changed from immediate post 9/11 practices, the methodological basis for which you dont know.
                              "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
                                I can't calculate the statistical probability of a hijacking committed by a little old lady from Kansas traveling with Fifi, her toy poodle. I could take a wild-assed guess that it's got a lot of zeros to the right of the decimal point, though.
                                As usual, you conflate nationality, age, gender, to create a stereotype. Were the folks you saw being searched really females over 70?
                                "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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