Why is Filing a Tax Return "Voluntary"?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Sometimes the accused can prove their innocence...

I don't get your point

[KrazyHorse]

The tax code is so complicated most people have to hire lawyers

Errr...no.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Where in the 5th does it say that? No person shall be deprived of life, liberty or property without due process - civil is property.

Maybe you better reread it. The Self-incrimination clause is separate from the Due Process clause.

"nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself,"

"nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;"

IRS liens, levies, and penalty assessments (including civil penalty assessments) all meet the requirements of due process - there are administrative and judicial procedures for challenging those assessments, and appellate procedures in event the original challenges are unsuccessful.

[KrazyHorse]

I filled out 7 tax returns this year in under an hour total:

2 X US federal
2 X Maryland state
2 X Canadian federal
1 X Quebec provincial

The things that took the longest were figuring out whether to report as married or unmarried (got married on August 26 last year) and what conversion rate to apply to US earnings in order to report them on my Canadian tax forms.

[Kidlicious]

KH told us how intelligent he is. This thread can now be closed.

[Berzerker]

First, who says it's voluntary?

The IRS

Filing can not constitute self-incrimination, unless you knowingly file a return which is materially false.

The 5th Amendment says we dont have to incriminate ourselves, what happens when income is gained illegally? We gotta report it, thats self-incrimination. And the 5th doesn't require us to have something to hide, just that we dont have to provide the gov't with evidence to be used against us.

Criminal prosecution of tax evaders is pretty rare (compared to the total number of possible candidates). That's because the government recognizes that criminal conviction requres a pretty high threshhold of unlawful conduct in order to prove that the violations of tax laws were both material and knowing.

They'd rather have your money than put you in jail

There's no prosecution involved in a normal, correct, filing. The right to not answer to avoid "self-incrimination" has been held to be restricted to matters where there is a prospect of criminal prosecution for the conduct. Merely not wanting to answer that you made 50 grand last year so you pay taxes on 50 grand is not criminal prosecution - it's tax assessment.

Its criminal prosecution when the IRS decides you made more and didn't report it, and there is always a prospect of prosecution when filing a return, says so right on the form.

You don't have to figure your tax. You can just state your income and deduction and let the IRS figure your tax. "Mistakes" do not lead to criminal proceedings. They lead to interest and penalties (only sometimes) if there's an underpayment of taxes. They lead to refunds and interest if there's an overpayment of taxes.

I dont know where you get your tax forms but there's all sorts of stuff I gotta report. Mistakes dont lead to prosecutions?

I see they've still got great weed in Kansas.

Not really

Congress does tell you what you owe. You know what a tax table is? It's that little thing in back which says if your taxable income is this much, you owe that much. It's up to you to tell the IRS what you made, and what you claim to deduct, but they tell you what you owe.

They tell me what I owe after I tell them what I made and what I owe and they disagree. It aint my job to tell them what I made and what I owe, thats their job.

You're not "testifying" "against" yourself. Been there, done that, courts have defined the terminology.

You offer the information on a tax form as a testimonial of your conduct.

If it is voluntary in your circumstances, don't lie, and no possible self-incrimination can occur.

That aint the point, the 5th protects against self-incrimination and it dont matter what you have to hide, or anything to hide.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Kidicious
KH told us how intelligent he is. This thread can now be closed.

If filling out a tax return is difficult for anybody not in an incredibly complicated financial position then they're an idiot.

I don't have to be smart to be able to file my own ****ing taxes. That's like saying I have to be smart to drive myself to work.

[Dauphin]

The tax system over there sounds ridiculously complicated if people who don't have particularly complicated financial positions are required to file returns.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Berzerker
The 5th Amendment says we dont have to incriminate ourselves, what happens when income is gained illegally? We gotta report it, thats self-incrimination. And the 5th doesn't require us to have something to hide, just that we dont have to provide the gov't with evidence to be used against us.

You have to report the amount of the income, but should you be afraid that the disclosure of its source could be used to convict you, it is possible to refuse to specify the source of the income due to your 5th amendment rights.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Dauphin
The tax system over there sounds ridiculously complicated if people who don't have particularly complicated financial positions are required to file returns.

A tax return for somebody with a normal financial situation involves filling in about 10 lines of information and looking up a number in a table.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse


If filling out a tax return is difficult for anybody not in an incredibly complicated financial position then they're an idiot.

I don't have to be smart to be able to file my own ****ing taxes. That's like saying I have to be smart to drive myself to work.

Libertarians make things difficult for themselves.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse


A tax return for somebody with a normal financial situation involves filling in about 10 lines of information and looking up a number in a table.

Here it requires no information and no returns.

[KrazyHorse]

They like to get you to fill in a return so that if you have extra income and fail to report it they can get you for lying on the form.

[Dauphin]

HMRC don't like you to fill in a return so that if you have overpaid then they don't have to repay you.

[Dauphin]

Actually that's unfair, inland revenue are as desperate to give you your money back as they are to take it. It's only former customs and excise that are bastards that are take, take, take.