Why is Filing a Tax Return "Voluntary"?

[Kidlicious]

You are required to report income that is gained illegally.

[Perfection]

Ooopsie, wrong thread! (Actually wrong forum too!)

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Kidicious
You are required to report income that is gained illegally.

The relevant point is are you required to say that it is illegal.

[Berzerker]

Nope you go to tax court.

Where you, me or a jury decides our fate? Nope, thats where the IRS and compliant judges decide our fate.

Well maybe, but you still have to file one or we all have to pay for the IRS to do it. That means, OMFG! more taxes and bigger govt!

The tax code is so complicated most people have to hire lawyers and waste hours figuring out what Congress should have figured out for them - thats a not so hidden tax.

Berz, is your complaint i) that you are incriminating yourself on the return by legally affirming that you have a debt owed (and hence it can be used in cases of tax evasion when you don't pay said debt), or ii) that you are incriminating yourself by potentially lying on a document that you are being forced to fill in (and hence attempting tax evasion)?

My complaint is that the 5th Amendment protects us from self-incrimination, but filing a return is in effect handing over to the prosecutors evidence that can be used against you regardless of guilt or innocence.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Where you, me or a jury decides our fate? Nope, thats where the IRS and compliant judges decide our fate.

Conspiracy theory. The IRS actually loses cases you know.

The tax code is so complicated most people have to hire lawyers and waste hours figuring out what Congress should have figured out for them - thats a not so hidden tax.

You know Berz, if your tax return is so damn complicated you've made a choice for it to be complicated. You can have a nice simple return if you like.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Dauphin


The relevant point is are you required to say that it is illegal.

Well if you are a whore you can say that you are an entertainer or something like that.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Berzerker
evidence that can be used against you regardless of guilt or innocence.

Guilt or innocence of what?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Why? That way I dont have to pay a lawyer to figure out what I owe and then be put in jail if mistakes are made. Congress has the power to levy taxes, not coerce us to levy taxes on ourselves under penalty of law.

I'd rather calculate my own deductions. If it was in the IRS's hands, I bet we'd have a whole lot less.

I mean really, filing our own taxes is really a favor to us. Just think about it. The reason it gets complicated is because people want to take all the deductions they feel they are entitled.

If you really wanted to, your tax return can be incredibly easy. Just get your W2 and interest & dividend information (easily obtainable from your banks and stock broker) and use the tax table. People get in trouble because they want to claim more than that.

And if you made the IRS calculate it, they'd just mandate the employer send them the W2s and the banks send them interest information and calculate the taxes straight from that... and it'd be much higher.

[Zkribbler]

(1) What the heck makes you think that filing a tax return is voluntary???

(2) Filing a tax return is not being forced to testify against.

(3) Filing a false tax report is a crime; it is not the testimony.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Berzerker
My complaint is that the 5th Amendment protects us from self-incrimination, but filing a return is in effect handing over to the prosecutors evidence that can be used against you regardless of guilt or innocence.

Oh, I almost forgot, the 5th Amendment protections against self-incrimination are only for CRIMINAL proceedings. Not civil. And you can't be thrown in jail for not paying your taxes (edit on ZKrib's post: talking about tax avoidance here, not evasion).

[Zkribbler]

Tell that to Al Capone.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Re: Why is Filing a Tax Return "Voluntary"?

Originally posted by Berzerker
Is it because filing constitutes self-incrimination when your return is used against you in "court" proceedings?

First, who says it's voluntary? It is mandatory in some circumstances, voluntary in others (i.e. no tax liability, but wish to claim EIC), or not required at all in others.

Filing can not constitute self-incrimination, unless you knowingly file a return which is materially false. Criminal prosecution of tax evaders is pretty rare (compared to the total number of possible candidates). That's because the government recognizes that criminal conviction requres a pretty high threshhold of unlawful conduct in order to prove that the violations of tax laws were both material and knowing.

What happens if you dont file? Can Congress punish us for refusing (filing is "voluntary") to file, i.e., refusing to provide Congress with evidence to prosecute us?

There's no prosecution involved in a normal, correct, filing. The right to not answer to avoid "self-incrimination" has been held to be restricted to matters where there is a prospect of criminal prosecution for the conduct. Merely not wanting to answer that you made 50 grand last year so you pay taxes on 50 grand is not criminal prosecution - it's tax assessment.

Another thing, Congress can levy taxes but does that mean Congress can tell us to figure out how much we owe with mistakes possibly resulting in criminal proceedings?

You don't have to figure your tax. You can just state your income and deduction and let the IRS figure your tax. "Mistakes" do not lead to criminal proceedings. They lead to interest and penalties (only sometimes) if there's an underpayment of taxes. They lead to refunds and interest if there's an overpayment of taxes.

I dont think so, if Congress levies a tax its up to
Congress to tell us what we owe, it is not up to us to tell Congress what we owe.

I see they've still got great weed in Kansas. Congress does tell you what you owe. You know what a tax table is? It's that little thing in back which says if your taxable income is this much, you owe that much. It's up to you to tell the IRS what you made, and what you claim to deduct, but they tell you what you owe.

If Congress cannot require me to testify against myself, why do the courts let Congress get away with this "voluntary" filing?

More You're not "testifying" "against" yourself. Been there, done that, courts have defined the terminology. And again, filing is only "voluntary" under certain circumstances. If I hadn't settled my prospective litigation and collected back wages and penalties through an administrative proceeding last year, I would not have been required to file a return, since I spent most of the year on disability.

If those two events hadn't happend, I could have "voluntarily" filed a return to get a refund on the withholding from the three weeks I worked at the end of the year, but I wouldn't have been required to. If I wanted to let the government keep my money, that would be my problem.

However, since I did get an administrative order against my ex-employer and collect back wages and penalties, and since I did convince my ex-employer to see the light and decide it really wasn't worth fighting me, I made enough taxable income that I am required to file as a matter of statute. Voluntary no longer applies.

Because its "voluntary" we have waived our right against self-incrimination by filing, but if we dont file they go after you for not filing.

If it is voluntary in your circumstances, don't lie, and no possible self-incrimination can occur. If it isn't voluntary in your circumstance, that you still don't have to worry about "incrimination" if you don't lie.

Now if you want to say that it was an honest "mistake" to write off 50 grand in business losses from the meetings in Hawai'i and all the sushi, booze and hookers you paid for in going to a convention for your Amway business which grossed sales of $100 to yourself, then you have a bit broader definition of "mistake" than the courts usually allow.

Still, that isn't blatant enough behavior to get you into the Federal criminal system unless you (a) do it on a much bigger scale, (b) do it on that scale for several years without even going through the motions of attempting to really be in business and make a profit, or (c) act as a business or tax consultant and take fees from clients for promoting them into or inducing them to engage in such fraudulent/frivolous deductions. If you don't meet (a), (b) or (c), what you get into is back taxes, penalties (non-payment and fraud) and interest, not criminal prosecution.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Zkribbler
Tell that to Al Capone.

Tax avoidance and tax evasion are two completely different things.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Zkribbler
Tell that to Al Capone.

Non-payment wasn't Al's problem.

It was the total failure to declare income, i.e. not filing returns and not reporting as required. Non-payment would have just triggered civil assessments against his business enterprises.

[Berzerker]

Conspiracy theory. The IRS actually loses cases you know.

Sometimes the accused can prove their innocence...

I'd rather calculate my own deductions. If it was in the IRS's hands, I bet we'd have a whole lot less.

You can do that regardless, and if you come up with different figures you can challenge the IRS' calculations. Same thing happens now if you're audited and your numbers dont match theirs.

Oh, I almost forgot, the 5th Amendment protections against self-incrimination are only for CRIMINAL proceedings. Not civil. And you can't be thrown in jail for not paying your taxes (edit on ZKrib's post: talking about tax avoidance here, not evasion).

Where in the 5th does it say that? No person shall be deprived of life, liberty or property without due process - civil is property.