Why is Filing a Tax Return "Voluntary"?

[Berzerker]

Is it because filing constitutes self-incrimination when your return is used against you in "court" proceedings?

What happens if you dont file? Can Congress punish us for refusing (filing is "voluntary") to file, i.e., refusing to provide Congress with evidence to prosecute us?

Another thing, Congress can levy taxes but does that mean Congress can tell us to figure out how much we owe with mistakes possibly resulting in criminal proceedings? I dont think so, if Congress levies a tax its up to Congress to tell us what we owe, it is not up to us to tell Congress what we owe. If Congress cannot require me to testify against myself, why do the courts let Congress get away with this "voluntary" filing? Because its "voluntary" we have waived our right against self-incrimination by filing, but if we dont file they go after you for not filing.

[rah]

Never thought of it that way. Quite interesting.
But remember you sign it, testifying that everything stated in it is true to your knowledge.

[Dauphin]

My understanding of certain tax environments is that not paying due taxes is what they go after you for, not the not filing of a return as such. Filing just stops them disagreeing with how much you say you owe?

[DinoDoc]

You can avoid taxes by spending a weekend with the Pain Monster.

[Krill]

You can avoid taxes by not working and not buying anything

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Krill
You can avoid taxes by not working and not buying anything

Spending time with the Pain Monster sounds easier.

[Krill]

Probably. And I think I missed something else off of the list; you can't sell anything either.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Dauphin
My understanding of certain tax environments is that not paying due taxes is what they go after you for, not the not filing of a return as such. Filing just stops them disagreeing with how much you say you owe?

I believe that's true. They go after you for what they see as due, and, of course, they will not add in any deductions to that.

[Berzerker]

But remember you sign it, testifying that everything stated in it is true to your knowledge.

But you cant be compelled to testify against yourself, therefore you cannot be prosecuted unless you "volunteer" the testimony/return. Thats how they get around the 5th Amendment

My understanding of certain tax environments is that not paying due taxes is what they go after you for, not the not filing of a return as such. Filing just stops them disagreeing with how much you say you owe?

True, if you dont owe taxes and dont file they dont hit you with jail time or penalties. But if you do owe, you are required to file or you get punished. Filing under those circumstances is coerced testimony against oneself when that "testimony" is used against you. Its akin to refusing to testify against yourself (a constitutional right) and being punished for not testifying against yourself.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Filing under those circumstances is coerced testimony against oneself when that "testimony" is used against you.

I don't believe it is used against anyone, unless they have made false statements (they can use your W2's to see what you owe or subpeona whatever other financial records).

I mean under your argument would lying on a license application be coerced testimony against yourself?

[Dauphin]

What happens if you correctly pay what you would have had to pay had you filed appropriately, but did not file. Additionally, if in such a circumstance, you are taken to court and adjudged to have paid the correct amount of tax.

Professional experience tells me that it is not unusual for people or companies to pay an amount sufficient to cover all potential tax liabilities by a due date, even though they will not meet the filing requirements* (which here are imposed by late filing penalties and fines based on a proportion of the outstanding liability - hence paying the liability and then reclaiming later is cheaper than paying the fine).


*This happens in circumstance where people have just put it off and off and off and then decided to get an accountant at the eleventh hour who then laughs and says it will never get done in time, but gives an estimate figure to keep the taxman happy whilst the paperwork is done properly.

[Berzerker]

I don't believe it is used against anyone, unless they have made false statements

But it can be used, I think that violates the 5th Amendment.

I mean under your argument would lying on a license application be coerced testimony against yourself?

No, I'm not being punished for refusing to apply for the license. But if I dont "volunteer" the financial information Congress wants, I do get punished if I owe. I dont have a problem with owing or paying the tax, my problem is I believe the 5th Amendment requires Congress to calculate what we owe, not us. By asking us "20 questions" Congress is compiling evidence that can be used against us.

What happens if you correctly pay what you would have had to pay had you filed appropriately, but did not file.

An audit I imagine, or is an audit the term used only for returns. Good question though, I'd much rather calculate what I owe and send a check than fill out a bunch of paperwork that can then be used to put me in jail.

[DinoDoc]

Do you really want people with the financial self-control of a crack whore to be the one's calculating how much of your money they are entitled to?

[Berzerker]

they do now, if their calculations dont match mine guess who is wrong

[Berzerker]

but yes, I'd rather Congress tell me what I owe rather than have Congress tell me to figure out what I owe and then put me in a cage if I'm wrong.