Interesting Old Christianity that are alive today

[curtsibling]

Enough with the name calling, Mobius.

[MOBIUS]

If they are going to be morons, let them be called morons...

[Elok]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
Says the gimp that came up with that dumbass counter argument...

To use the same logic basically implies you don't even know if god actually exists yourself...

No, it doesn't. Look up "counter-example" sometime. It's one of the first things you learn in logic class. I'll give you a rough definition: "Taking your opponent's line of reasoning and replacing the terms with exactly corresponding ones of a different type, resulting in an argument with premises that are all obviously true but leading to an obviously false conclusion--thereby proving his line of reasoning invalid."

In this case, I took your babble to the effect that a bunch of differing theories on a subject must be all wrong, and simply changed the theories and subject in question to ones you are not, to my knowledge, prejudiced against. If you don't believe in evolution either, I can ask Odin to come explain it to you with a pair of pliers and a blowtorch.

Now, as I said, please g'way. The jackass-vibes you give off are beginning to crash the server, and the rest of us like this exchange of information.

[Nikolai]

If you hadn't been a foreigner Jon, I'd recommend you a book I read a few months ago. It's written by a Norwegian who used a few years traveling around in the Middle East around the millennium shift, visiting and talking to different Christian churches, both their leaders and the average guy. The book's only available in Norwegian as far as I know though.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Elok
No, it doesn't. Look up "counter-example" sometime. It's one of the first things you learn in logic class. I'll give you a rough definition: "Taking your opponent's line of reasoning and replacing the terms with exactly corresponding ones of a different type, resulting in an argument with premises that are all obviously true but leading to an obviously false conclusion--thereby proving his line of reasoning invalid."

In this case, I took your babble to the effect that a bunch of differing theories on a subject must be all wrong, and simply changed the theories and subject in question to ones you are not, to my knowledge, prejudiced against. If you don't believe in evolution either, I can ask Odin to come explain it to you with a pair of pliers and a blowtorch.

Exactly. By using that same line of argument you are admitting that you don't even know whether god exists or not...

In fact you are basically acknowledging nobody knows which religion is the correct religion - otherwise EVERYONE would be worshipping that one! And if nobody knows which is the correct one due a TOTAL LACK OF PROOF!!!, then logically we can surmise that religion is pointless...

Now evolution however can be proved with greater and greater certainty, so again you are undone foolishly attempted to compare something which can be proved against something which cannot...

Now, as I said, please g'way. The jackass-vibes you give off are beginning to crash the server, and the rest of us like this exchange of information.

Is it my fault if you don't like being called on your moronic beliefs? I too am enjoying this exchange of information, I find it really quaint how all these people can all believe in totally different things and yet claim with total conviction without hint of irony, that theirs is the true path and all the rest are false...

[Nikolai]

Mobius, could you please start your own thread for religion bashing?

[curtsibling]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
If they are going to be morons, let them be called morons...

Don't drag down the image of atheism to that level.

Be smart, and drop the name calling.

That is all.

[Elok]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
Exactly. By using that same line of argument you are admitting that you don't even know whether god exists or not...

No, I am not. That does not follow at all. I don't even see how you came to that conclusion.

In fact you are basically acknowledging nobody knows which religion is the correct religion - otherwise EVERYONE would be worshipping that one! And if nobody knows which is the correct one due a TOTAL LACK OF PROOF!!!, then logically we can surmise that religion is pointless...

Again, that does not follow, as different people come from different backgrounds and perspectives, have different priorities, have different degrees of access to new information--and all humans are prone to error. People like to develop their own theories on things, and they don't let go of those theories lightly.

There is no hard proof due to limitations inherent in the subject religious belief "studies." Anything empirically provable--reliably responding in a predictable way--would quite obviously be part of the natural, mechanistic world, not something divine. There are inherent limitations to what we can learn of the matter. Much the same can be said, albeit for different reasons, of psychology, history, forensics, meteorology...

As for your "logical surmise," do you even know what the word "logic" means, or are you using it as shorthand for "according to my prejudices?" Absence of proof does not equal proof of absence. That's a cliche, for crying out loud, I shouldn't need to tell you that.

Now evolution however can be proved with greater and greater certainty, so again you are undone foolishly attempted to compare something which can be proved against something which cannot...

I did not say they are alike in every way. They are alike in at least one respect, namely that there are many competing beliefs about them. That was why I chose evolution for the counter-example; it only needs to work in that way AFAIC.

Is it my fault if you don't like being called on your moronic beliefs? I too am enjoying this exchange of information, I find it really quaint how all these people can all believe in totally different things and yet claim with total conviction without hint of irony, that theirs is the true path and all the rest are false...

Yes, yes, we all know you're a condescending douche. Thing is, those feelings of quaintness you're getting are just a function of your limited critical thinking ability, amplified by that Mobian sense of self-satisfaction we all know and loathe. You're not "calling me" on anything, you're just advertising your stupidity with nonsensical objections.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Elok
No, I am not. That does not follow at all. I don't even see how you came to that conclusion.

OK, I can see we're going to have to do this the hard way - step by step...

#1: Do you know if god exists, if so, why?

[Elok]

Wow, you're being marginally less obnoxious, I'm honored. Have a cookie, Moby.

It depends what you mean by "know," really. It cannot be known for certain, empirically. From your perspective, I suppose that's a "no." Thing is, it isn't a no from my perspective, and there's no hard-and-fast logical reason why it should be a no. Normally, in matters where there is no certain proof, ignoring the possibility is a sound rule of thumb (though still not a logical necessity).

However, in this case it would be the nature of the beast to be unknowable in any certain terms, assuming for the sake of argument that it is true. The only evidence there is to go by is subjective, unverifiable, immediate and personal. But that "evidence" (I feel silly using such a pompous term) does exist, at least in my experience, and what there is of it is viscerally and profoundly real. Where such experiences clash with the verifiable truth, e.g. a man who is certain that the government is spying on his brainwaves, which is patently impossible as well as absurd, it is more reasonable to assume science is right and the individual is wrong.

But religion--or at least my religion--is not such a case. There's no referee here. You have nothing but personal incredulity to bring to bear against me: "how likely is it that there's an invisible, all-powerful being who yadda yadda yadda...?" But that's BS. It's BS when a fundy whines about how incredible the complexity of ostensibly evolved life is, and it's BS now. We're talking about a cause here, not an effect, and speaking of probability is meaningless. It's a case of my perceptions vs. your contempt for them, and that's just no contest. If I can't trust my senses, what cause do I have for trusting anything at all?

[DaShi]

There is a 99.9% chance that Ted Striker will post next in this thread.

[Nikolai]

I guess I'm that 0.1% then.

[DaShi]

Dang, it always gets me.

[curtsibling]

Religion is an important part of human culture and development.

I have always had serious issues with the extreme abuse certain human groups have caused in the name
of religion. But I cannot deny the historical importance of religions in the the growth of civilised man.

No-one really knows if there is a god. Bottom line. We think of strong mental experiences that indicate
a divine feeling, or a 'godly' presence. But the mind is a powerful force, and it can be deceptive.

As an atheist, and a non-believer in the supernatural, I feel that I do not need to bother with such
distractions of 'soul', 'sin', or 'afterlife'. But I can understand why some people need these things.

I just draw the line when someone tries to force thier ideology on me, that is when the foot goes down.
I can accept other mindsets, and can see a larger picture...And I expect that from others at the least.

[_BuRjaCi_]

Eventually the RCC will bring order and stability to the Christian realm. The rebels will be destroyed with one swift stroke! /Imperial march playing quite conspicuously/