Happy Putin!

[Spiffor]

Not only is he happy, he's playful too

[Asmodean]

Re: It wasn't hard to predict that you couldn't think for yourself...

Originally posted by VJ

Hey, **** you too buddy. I've been right in every prediction I've made about Putin during the last 6 years, and I've had it with you idiots who repeat the conventional wisdom without realizing that you're always proved wrong within the next six months. But feel free to continue with your endless mental masturbation instead of learning anything new or trying to think critically for a moment.

Cold war is over, better get used to it.


What's awesome is that you didn't actually promise what I asked, instead turned the debate into nothing but an exchange of ad hominems. That's because deep within yourself you know that I am (again) 100% correct in my prediction about Putin and your prediction is BS.

Erm.....who started attacking who

I am normally never rude, but I just couldn't let that personal attack go without a rebut. So if you will continue the debate on more polite terms, I'll be more than happy to oblige

And as for the promise. Yes, of course I will promise that. Nothing would make me happier than seeing Russia revert to some form of democracy. And I also appreciate than ever under the best of circumstances, the transition from authoritarian rule to democrace takes a long time. We're talking decades here.

But!! Nothing Putin has done impresses me the least. He may be elected in a semi-democratic way, but he has so far done little to ease the path to democracy for Russia. And that is a bleedin fact. Continued tightening of almost every freedom worth mentioning plus his adventure in Chechnya leaves little room for admiration from me.

Hell, for all I know, he may even resign after his two terms, only to have some sort of puppet elected president, thus continuing his de facto dictatorship.

Sorry VJ, but I have to call them as I see them.

But as I said, I would like to be proven wrong.

Asmodean

[lord of the mark]

siro, solver and VJ.


You are all confused as to whether Putin is a dictator, and what role regular succession after a two term limit plays, cause you havent had the opportunity of living next door to Mexico. And some of my fellow Americans are either too young to remember, or didnt follow Mexican politics closely enough.

Mexico for decades was governed by the PRI - the Institutional Revolutionary Party. In stark contrast to commie states, the PRI was strict about term limits - each president served for one term only. No Mexican President could really be called a dictator. Opposition parties existed, and some opposition press existed. However elections were corrupt, the powers that be in Mexican society were all tied to the PRI, a real challenge to PRI power would be met with violence. Mexico was called by political scientists (who are wimpy liberal artists, but in this case came up with valuable insights provided by no fizzicist) a one party dominant state. Each President of Mexico had a key role in choosing his successor, along with the rest of the PRI elite, and on departing office remained part of that PRI elite.


This, with some variations, seems to be the system that is evolving in Russia. What many forget is that it did NOT start with Putin - it started with Yeltsin, in the later years when he broke with the liberal reformers. Yeltsin annointed Putin his successor, as Putin is likely to annoint his successor. The United Russia party of Putin is the lineal successor of Yeltsins official party. Unlike Yeltsin, Putin has cemented the alliance of the Presidency with the power ministries, the FSB, etc. It is that power grouping that has achieved control of Russia and wants to make it permanent, more than any individual. Though Putin has been very important as an individual in making their success possible. It may be at this point that they can afford someone less personally "charismatic" than Putin.

Ole!

[Solver]

Ah, but Yeltsin had a totally different situation. He took over the country after the USSR collapsed - essentially, it was the history's biggest police state ever collapsing. Granted, Russia in 1998 wasn't the prime example of democracy, but the progress made had been great compared to the USSR. The second President of Russia had a chance to continue that course and to make Russia a newly emerged democracy. Yeltsin was already becoming senile towards the end of his term, he was drinking too much, etc.

In the end, I don't think it really matters what the details of the system are - is it like the Mexican party-governing system, or a system where one President has complete authority, or whatever. What matters is the fact that this system isn't a democratic one.

[lord of the mark]

he wasnt always drunk. From what I recall, there was conflict between the liberals and the Kremlin family, in, I think 96 and 97. And Yeltsin made a conscious choice to abandon the liberals, perhaps as part of a deal with Putin and the power ministries to avoid persecution for corruption. I say that despite my admiration for his heroism in 1991. I think in the long term history will not look so kindly on Yeltsin - but not in the manner of the current Yeltsin hatred in Russia. Rather he will be seen as, despite all, representing a part of the continuity between the old USSR and new power regime in Russia. After all, he himself, despite being a maverick, was a product of the CPSU. Perhaps not the ideal individual (his drinking aside) to found a democracy.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Solver

In the end, I don't think it really matters what the details of the system are - is it like the Mexican party-governing system, or a system where one President has complete authority, or whatever. What matters is the fact that this system isn't a democratic one.

actually i think what kind of undemocratic regime a country has matters immensely. It effects the political path of the country, its stability, as well as the prospects for democratic recovery.

[lord of the mark]

BTW. Mr Joyal's wife now says his wallet was found in his car, and his briefcase is accounted for. And that there neighborhood doesnt have a lot of crime.

OTOH the police are said to be looking for two black men. It continues to be asserted that this could have been "random crime".

[lord of the mark]

more on the russian journalist who had the unfortunate accident of falling from an apartment building


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070306/...nalist_s_death;_ylt=Aop3y5SJl9AG3r5LqD13BclvaA8F

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Not only is he happy, he's playful too

Does this look like the "Playful Putin!" thread?

[Colon™]

Happy tsar.

[LordShiva]

Happy Putin can pwn any world leader in hand-to-hand combat





And in fishing

[The Vagabond]

Nice photos, LordShiva.

On the other hand, I am slightly disappointed by his torso. I thought it was more powerful than that.

[The Vagabond]

By the way, how did Paul Joyal's shooting case (discussed earlier in this thread) eventually turn out? Is it still blamed on the evil Russkies?

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by VJ
Actually, all I want to hear is a promise that when Putin stops being President after ruling the country for 8 years and winning both of his elections fair and square exactly as the constitution says, all you idiots who have been sheepishly (dronishly, to make an SMAC reference) repeating what your media commentators and "experts" with their cold war mentality have said to you will admit that you were wrong, you were idiots, and you know nothing about Russia.

Putin will no doubt stop being president.

He will probably be appointed to some state run conglomerate and the actual political power will shift there.

[Sirotnikov]

http://opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110010398

Don Putin
To understand today's Russia, read "The Godfather."

BY GARRY KASPAROV
Sunday, July 29, 2007 12:01 a.m. EDT

When Vladimir Putin took power in Russia in 2000, the burning question was: "Who is Putin?" It has now changed to: "What is the nature of Putin's Russia?" This regime has been remarkably consistent in its behavior, yet foreign leaders and the Western press still act surprised at Mr. Putin's total disregard for their opinions.

Again and again we hear cries of: "Doesn't Putin know how bad this looks?" When another prominent Russian journalist is murdered, when a businessman not friendly to the Kremlin is jailed, when a foreign company is pushed out of its Russian investment, when pro-democracy marchers are beaten by police, when gas and oil supplies are used as weapons, or when Russian weapons and missile technology are sold to terrorist sponsor states like Iran and Syria, what needs to be asked is what sort of government would continue such behavior. This Kremlin regime operates within a value system entirely different from that of the Western nations struggling to understand what is happening behind the medieval red walls.

Mr. Putin's government is unique in history. This Kremlin is part oligarchy, with a small, tightly connected gang of wealthy rulers. It is partly a feudal system, broken down into semi-autonomous fiefdoms in which payments are collected from the serfs, who have no rights. Over this there is a democratic coat of paint, just thick enough to gain entry into the G-8 and keep the oligarchy's money safe in Western banks.

But if you really wish to understand the Putin regime in depth, I can recommend some reading. No Karl Marx or Adam Smith. Nothing by Montesquieu or Machiavelli, although the author you are looking for is of Italian descent. But skip Mussolini's "The Doctrine of Fascism," for now, and the entire political science section. Instead, go directly to the fiction department and take home everything you can find by Mario Puzo. If you are in a real hurry to become an expert on the Russian government, you may prefer the DVD section, where you can find Mr. Puzo's works on film. "The Godfather" trilogy is a good place to start, but do not leave out "The Last Don," "Omerta" and "The Sicilian."

The web of betrayals, the secrecy, the blurred lines between what is business, what is government, and what is criminal--it's all there in Mr. Puzo's books. A historian looks at the Kremlin today and sees elements of Mussolini's "corporate state," Latin American juntas and Mexico's pseudo-democratic PRI machine. A Puzo fan sees the Putin government more accurately: the strict hierarchy, the extortion, the intimidation, the code of secrecy and, above all, the mandate to keep the revenue flowing. In other words, a mafia.

If a member of the inner circle goes against the Capo, his life is forfeit. Once Russia's richest man, Mikhail Khodorkovsky wanted to go straight and run his Yukos oil company as a legitimate corporation and not as another cog in Mr. Putin's KGB, Inc. He quickly found himself in a Siberian prison, his company dismantled and looted, and its pieces absorbed by the state mafia apparatus of Rosneft and Gazprom.

The Yukos case has become a model. Private companies are absorbed into the state while at the same time the assets of the state companies move into private accounts.

Alexander Litvinenko was a KGB agent who broke the loyalty code by fleeing to Britain. Worse, he violated the law of omertà by going to the press and even publishing books about the dirty deeds of Mr. Putin and his foot soldiers. Instead of being taken fishing in the old-fashioned Godfather style, he was killed in London in the first recorded case of nuclear terrorism. Now the Kremlin is refusing to hand over the main suspect in the murder.

Mr. Putin can't understand Britain doing potential harm to its business interests over one human life. That's an alien concept. In his world, everything is negotiable. Morals and principles are just chips on the table in the Kremlin's game. There is no mere misunderstanding in the Litvinenko case; there are two different languages being spoken.

In the civilized world, certain things are sacrosanct. Human life is not traded at the same table where business and diplomacy are discussed. But for Mr. Putin, it's a true no-limits game. Kosovo, the missile shield, pipeline deals, the Iranian nuclear program and democratic rights are all just cards to be played.

After years of showing no respect for the law in Russia, with no resulting consequences from abroad, it should not come as a surprise that Mr. Putin's attitude extends to international relations as well. The man accused of the Litvinenko murder, Andrei Lugovoi, signs autographs and enjoys the support of the Russian media, which says and does nothing without Kremlin approval. For seven years the West has tried to change the Kremlin with kind words and compliance. It apparently believed that it would be able to integrate Mr. Putin and his gang into the Western system of trade and diplomacy.

Instead, the opposite has happened--the mafia corrupts everything it touches. Bartering in human rights begins to appear acceptable. The Kremlin is not changing its standards: It is imposing them on the outside world. It receives the stamp of legitimacy from Western leaders and businesses but makes those same leaders and businesses complicit in its crimes.

With energy prices so high, the temptation to sell out to the Kremlin is an offer you almost can't refuse. Gerhard Schröder could not resist doing business with Mr. Putin on his terms and, after pushing through a Baltic Sea pipeline deal while in office, he had a nice Gazprom job waiting for him when he left the chancellorship. Silvio Berlusconi also became a Putin business partner. He even answered for Mr. Putin at an EU meeting, vigorously defending Russian abuses in Chechnya and the jailing of Mr. Khodorkovsky and then joking to Mr. Putin, "I should be your lawyer!" Now we see Nicolas Sarkozy boosting the interests of French energy company Total in the Shtokman gas field.

Can Mr. Sarkozy possibly speak out strongly in support of Britain after making big deals on the phone with Mr. Putin? He should know that if Gordon Brown gets Mr. Putin on the line and offers to drop the case against Mr. Lugovoi, perhaps Total will find itself pushed out to make room for BP.

We in the Russian opposition have been saying for a long time that our problem would soon be the world's problem. The mafia knows no borders. Nuclear terror is not out of the question if it fits in with the Kremlin business agenda. Expelling diplomats and limiting official visits is not going to have an impact.

How about limiting the Russian ruling elite's visits to their properties in the West? Ironically, they like to keep their money where they can trust in the rule of law, and so far Mr. Putin and his wealthy supporters have every reason to believe their money is safe. They've been spending so much on ski trips to the Alps that they recently decided to bring the skiing to Russia by snapping up the Olympic Winter Games.

There is no reason to cease doing business with Russia. The delusion is that it can ever be more than that. The mafia takes, it does not give. Mr. Putin has discovered that when dealing with Europe and America he can always exchange worthless promises of reform for cold, hard cash. Mr. Lugovoi may yet find himself up for sale.

Mr. Kasparov, former world chess champion, is a contributing editor of The Wall Street Journal and chairman of the United Civil Front of Russia, a pro-democracy opposition organization.