QC-CLUB thread: 2007 election

[Richelieu]

The MP for Gatineau is with the Bloc.

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by Flubber
So the Cretien choke guy is running as a separtist in HULL.

Would that area ever go separtist given how many people there work for the federal government? Wouldn't that riding be just like the anglo ridings as being 'no-hopers" for anyone with a separtist label

In '95, Parizeau promised to uphold the jobs of federal civil servants in the case of a YES. IIRC, the Hull-Gatineau area voted 50-50.

[Lul Thyme]

Originally posted by Flubber
So the Cretien choke guy is running as a separtist in HULL.

Would that area ever go separtist given how many people there work for the federal government? Wouldn't that riding be just like the anglo ridings as being 'no-hopers" for anyone with a separtist label

Hull is usually heavily liberal.
Maybe some will disagree with me but I think it's getting more and more wrong to see this as separatist vs federalist.
As far as I can tell, the number of people for which this is the main issue in provincial elections is decreasing a lot.

[Ninot]

CBC had a great piece on tonight about the Saguenay. It went 70% Oui in 95, and last election went Liberal. They interviewed a bunch of people who think Quebec won't have a chance of seperating, and they don't like Boisclair, so yeah, I think the future of Quebec elections is Liberal vs. ADQ

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris
The irony is that Albertan chickenhawks constantly depict separatists as crybabies who want to live on others' money, while in reality it's the federalists that invoke equalization payments as an argument for staying within Canada.

I was wonering why I had an overpowering impulse to open this thread.

In truth the 'chickenhawks' here, and elsewhere, might be thinking that seperatism is used by some in Ottawa and Quebec to get more money for the province than it otherwise warrants.

I'm not sure if you agree with them, but it sounds as if you might. Would that make you a chickenhawk?

[Fake Boris]

Good precision.

Transfer money is a double-edged sword. Since the close victory of the NON in '95, separatist politics has lost much of its 'poetic' momentum, and its discourse has revolved more around petty bickering than grandiloquent arguments about self-determination and historical destiny. This, combined with the continued (and allegedly unwanted) presence of the Bloc in Ottawa, has brought to the surface pragmatic debates that were not the major stake in the times of Lévesque.

The Bloc needs to do something to justify its presence in Ottawa - hence the equalization debate, and the interpretation in ROC that their whining is bad faith extortion. I wouldn't credit them with that much foresight, though, since each time they get something, they're providing ammunition to the federalists. Each side feeds itself from the paradox of the other; the separatists claim that Ottawa will only move its ass when faced with a threat, and that as such sovereignty is the only solution. OTOH, federalists see the gains the Bloc made as a proof that federalism is working, implicitly acknowledging the validity of the separatist threat.

The bottom line is still that whatever special favors separatism has been able to pry from Ottawa's hands, it's still the idea of sovereignty that drives the Bloc and PQ, which goes along with the acknowledgement that an independent Quebec would be financially worse off. The presence of the Bloc in Ottawa is an historical contingence, not a concerted plan...

[Tattila the Hun]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris
Huh... 20 thread views in 3 minutes, and it's specified in the title that it's a ****ing QUEBEC club thread.

It's only specified, if one knows what QC is.

[CrONoS]

Someone watched the debate?

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris
Good precision.

Transfer money is a double-edged sword. Since the close victory of the NON in '95, separatist politics has lost much of its 'poetic' momentum, and its discourse has revolved more around petty bickering than grandiloquent arguments about self-determination and historical destiny. This, combined with the continued (and allegedly unwanted) presence of the Bloc in Ottawa, has brought to the surface pragmatic debates that were not the major stake in the times of Lévesque.

The Bloc needs to do something to justify its presence in Ottawa - hence the equalization debate, and the interpretation in ROC that their whining is bad faith extortion. I wouldn't credit them with that much foresight, though, since each time they get something, they're providing ammunition to the federalists. Each side feeds itself from the paradox of the other; the separatists claim that Ottawa will only move its ass when faced with a threat, and that as such sovereignty is the only solution. OTOH, federalists see the gains the Bloc made as a proof that federalism is working, implicitly acknowledging the validity of the separatist threat.

The bottom line is still that whatever special favors separatism has been able to pry from Ottawa's hands, it's still the idea of sovereignty that drives the Bloc and PQ, which goes along with the acknowledgement that an independent Quebec would be financially worse off. The presence of the Bloc in Ottawa is an historical contingence, not a concerted plan...

OK, but how many voters use the PQ and the Bloc as weapons of extortion? It's not actually the seperatists that a thoughtful citizen of the ROC would resent. They are being honest with the rest of us. It is the people who use the seperatists as a tool, be they voters, MPs, or PMs, who should be boiled in oil with fires fed by used ballots, but I digress...

I fully believe what you tell me. Committed sovereigntists don't care about the cost. However, do they openly admit that a 'Qui' vote will have negative impact on the standard of living for the average Quebecois?

I read not. The Loonie debate, etc. Even in this thread it is reported that everyone in the Capital region will keep a job. What sort of job? The government of a country with 33 million people employs a fair few people in the capital.

Still, it would not surprise me if there were reports of costs that I have never heard about. Are they available in English?

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by cronos_qc
Someone watched the debate?

No. What happened?

La Presse claims that Dumont is the winner, while Le Devoir claims it is Boisclair. I can't judge for myself, but I am skeptical about the objectivity of Desmarais' rag. My 2 cents would be that they want to split the francophone vote to help Charest...

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by notyoueither
OK, but how many voters use the PQ and the Bloc as weapons of extortion? It's not actually the seperatists that a thoughtful citizen of the ROC would resent. They are being honest with the rest of us. It is the people who use the seperatists as a tool, be they voters, MPs, or PMs, who should be boiled in oil with fires fed by used ballots, but I digress...

I don't think there are that many, if any, of them. Federalists are commited too. Why would they take the risk of fueling the separatist movement by adopting an aggressive stance towards Ottawa? The situation is roughly as follows: one third commited separatist, one third commited federalist, one third swing. Charlottetown and Meech, AdScam, etc, have demonstrated how these swing voters are emotionally affected by contingent events. Sound federalist strategy is to avoid pressing issues that might result in stirring up the emotion. Separatist strategy (when the PQ forms the opposition) is to pressure the federalist PM into seeking new favors from Ottawa, with the expectation that Ottawa's traditional reluctance can help them.

I fully believe what you tell me. Committed sovereigntists don't care about the cost. However, do they openly admit that a 'Qui' vote will have negative impact on the standard of living for the average Quebecois?

No sane politician would harangue a crowd with the cloud of a negative eventuality. But all major separatist figures have privately admitted the negative economical impact of separatism, and through closed lips in public, when the issue is forced onto them.

I read not. The Loonie debate, etc. Even in this thread it is reported that everyone in the Capital region will keep a job. What sort of job? The government of a country with 33 million people employs a fair few people in the capital.

I am not informed about the specifics. Those who could reasonably stay in the Gatineau area would; others would probably be offered a relocation.

Still, it would not surprise me if there were reports of costs that I have never heard about. Are they available in English?

What costs do you have in mind?

[CrONoS]

Last Poll, done after the debates:

PLQ: 33%
PQ: 33%
ADQ: 30%

Only french-quebeckers voters:
ADQ: 35%
PQ: 34%
PLQ: 24%

1000 persons. Margin 3.4; 19/20.

WoW! Everything can happen!

[CrONoS]

Stolen from antagoniste.net

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris


I don't think there are that many, if any, of them. Federalists are commited too. Why would they take the risk of fueling the separatist movement by adopting an aggressive stance towards Ottawa? The situation is roughly as follows: one third commited separatist, one third commited federalist, one third swing. Charlottetown and Meech, AdScam, etc, have demonstrated how these swing voters are emotionally affected by contingent events. Sound federalist strategy is to avoid pressing issues that might result in stirring up the emotion. Separatist strategy (when the PQ forms the opposition) is to pressure the federalist PM into seeking new favors from Ottawa, with the expectation that Ottawa's traditional reluctance can help them.

OK, so you explain what I am asking.

Shifting politics cause swing voters to move about. The political landscape would be seriously affected if Quebec were judged to be a have province (the cash would stop coming in and might reverse).

A combination of voters and politicians in Quebec City and Ottawa are resulting in massive amounts of cash being siphoned out of 'have' provinces and not going to the truely 'have-nots'.

Quebec has the much ballyhoo'ed daycare programme. Neither Ontario nor Alberta could dream of having such a programme. Where is the cash coming from, and why?

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by cronos_qc
Last Poll, done after the debates:

PLQ: 33%
PQ: 33%
ADQ: 30%

Only french-quebeckers voters:
ADQ: 35%
PQ: 34%
PLQ: 24%

1000 persons. Margin 3.4; 19/20.

WoW! Everything can happen!

Interesting