History's Greatest Statesmen

[Alexander I]

In the tradition of the Great Generals thread, this thread is devoted to history's greatest statesmen (and women).
So name your top 5, and say why, if you want.

Here's some of my favorites, though I guess they're not really my exclusive top 5.

1. Gaius Marius
2. George Washington
3. Nelson Mandela
4. Winston Churchill
5. Cleisthenes

Honorable Mention: Klemens von Metternich

[LordShiva]

Chanakya

[Kuciwalker]

George W. Bush.

[KrazyHorse]

Joseph Smith jr

[notyoueither]

Tsk, tsk, Krazy, missing a chance to plug Pearson. Tsk, tsk.

[One_more_turn]

Ghenghis Khan

[Ned]

Re: History's Greatest Statesmen

Originally posted by Alexander01
In the tradition of the Great Generals thread, this thread is devoted to history's greatest statesmen (and women).
So name your top 5, and say why, if you want.

Here's some of my favorites, though I guess they're not really my exclusive top 5.

1. Gaius Marius
2. George Washington
3. Nelson Mandela
4. Winston Churchill
5. Cleisthenes

Honorable Mention: Klemens von Metternich

Churchill? He was one of the folks who behind both WWI and WWII.

[Ned]

Timur the Lame.

Not, "surrender or die." Just, "Surrender! You die."

Stack the skulls, boys.

[TheStinger]

How exactly was Churchill behind WW2

Oh I forgot he invaded Poland

[Ned]

Irving pointed out that Churchill rejected Hitler's peace offers in 1939, 1940, and 1941 (Irving supports the thesis that Rudolf Hess's flight to Scodand was ordered by the Führer). Irving pinpointed one critical moment, and supplied the background:

The crucial moment when he managed to kill this peace offensive in England was July 1940. If we look at the one date. July the 20th. this I think was something of a watershed between the old era of peace, the greatness of the British Empire and the new era, the new era. Of nuclear deterrent and the holocaust, the nuclear holocaust, July 20, 1940. Mr. Churchill is lying in bed that Sunday out in Checkers. when he gets a strange message. It's an intercept of a German ambassador's telegram in Washington to Berlin. It's only just been revealed. of course, that we were reading all of the German codes, not only the German Army, Air Force and Navy Codes. but also the German embassy codes. And if you're silly enough to believe everything that's written in the official history of British Intelligence, you will understand that the only reason that they released half of the stories is to prevent us from trying to find out the other half. And what matters is that we are reading the German diplomatic codes as well. On July 20th. the German ambassador in Washington sent a message to Berlin saying that the British ambassador in Washington had asked him very quietly, very confidentially, just what the German peace terms were. This. of course. was the one thing that Churchill could never allow to happen, that the British find out what Hitler's peace terms are. He sends an immediate message to the foreign office, to Lord Halifax, saying, "Your ambassador in Washington is strictly forbidden to have any further contacts with the German ambassador, even indirectly." They were communicating through a Quaker intermediary.

Now, on the same day, Churchill sent a telegram to Washington ordering Lord Lothian, the British ambassador in Washington, to have nothing to do with the German ambassador. And the same day, he takes a third move to ensure that the peace moves in Britain are finally strangled at birth. He orders Sir Charles Portal to visit him at Checkers, the country residence of British prime ministers. Sir Charles Partal was Commander in Chief of Bomber Command. Now what is the significance? Well, the significance is this. Up to July 1940, not one single German bomb has fallen on British towns. Hitler had given orders that no British towns are to be bombed and, above all. bombing of London is completely forbidden and embargoed. Churchill knows this, because he's reading the German code, he's reading the German Air Force signals, which I can now read in the German files. Churchill is reading the signals and he knows that Hitler is not doing him the favor.

Hitler is still hoping that this madman in England will see reason or that he will be outvoted by his cabinet colleagues. So he's not doing Churchill the favor of bombing any English towns. Churchil is frantic because he thinks he's being outsmarted by Hitler. On July the 20th he sends for Sir Charles Portal, the Chief of Bomber Command. and he says to Sir Charles Portal, as we know from records from Command to the Air Ministry, "When is the earliest that you could launch a vicious air attack on Berlin?" Sir Charles Portal replies to Winston, "I'm afraid we can't do it now, not until September because the nights aren't long enough to fly from England to Berlin and back in the hours of darkness. September, perhaps, and in September we will have the first hundred of the new Sterling bombers ..." But he also says, "I warn you, if you do that, the Germans will retaliate. At present they're not bombing English targets, they're not bombing civilian targets at all and you know why. And if you bomb Berlin, then Hitler will retaliate against English civilian targets." And Churchill just twinkles when he gets this reply because he knows what he wants.

We know what he wants because he's told Joe Kennedy, the American Ambassador, Joseph P. Kennedy, father of the late President, "I want the Germans to start bombing London as early as possible because this will bring the Americans into the war when they see the Nazis' frightfulness and above all it will put an end to this awkward and inconvenient peace movement that's afoot in my own Cabinet and among the British population." I've opened Kennedy's diary, I've also read Kennedy's telegrams back to the State Department in Washington. They're buried among the files. You can't find them easily, but they are worth reading and you see in detail what Churchill was telling him. What cynicism. Churchill deliberately provoking the bombing of his own capital in order to kill the peace movement. He's been warned this would be the consequence, but he needs it. And still Hitler doesn't do him the favor.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v07/v07p498_Okeefe.html

[Alexander I]

Well, Churchill was in charge of the Gallipoli fiasco in WWI (at least I think that's the one), but I certainly never said he was a great general.

And yes, he rejected Hitler's peace offers, but one could argue that he had the foresight to see that Hitler was untrustworthy at best.

[Ned]

Alexander, no doubt he had read Hitler's book.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by Alexander01
Well, Churchill was in charge of the Gallipoli fiasco in WWI (at least I think that's the one)...

He conceived of the invasion into the "soft underbelly" of the Central Powers. It was the generals in charge of the plan who screwed it up....plus, a heroic defense by Attaturk.

[Zkribbler]

Re: History's Greatest Statesmen

Originally posted by Alexander01
... this thread is devoted to history's greatest statesmen (and women).

Define "statesmen." Are they (a) people who ran their country well; (b) people who are adept at international diplomacy; (c) both; (d) something else, or (e) bananas?

[Ned]

Well, Bismarck is consisdered by most to be a great statesman. Perhaps he is the model.