US Jewish lobby warns Turkish MFA on Armenian genocide bill

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by germanos

Does the Turkish state acknowledge that? And if so, has it done anything to reconcile the Armenians?

Only in a half-assed fashion, and that's the problem; as I said, the Turks are crap diplomats and crap politicians, and so they've failed to deal with this successfully. Recent history is full of examples of how a country can apologize and move on, regardless of the sincerity of the apology. But the turks won't look to those examples, becuase they're too proud to apologize for anything, ever. Their pride is one thing I like about the Turks (although it is exactly what makes them crap diplomats and crap politicians), but when they take it to this extreme, it's just stupid.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by germanos
The recent murder of Dink Hrant and the row over Pamuk's Nobel Prize suggest that there is still a rift between Turks and Armenians. Is this just because the Armenians want to hear 'genocide' or is it they feel the crimes against them are not recognized properly? Is it just that 'genocide' is a red cloth for the Turkish bull or do the Turks rather view this episode not a crime?

What it really illustrates is that most of Turkey is ready to get over the issue. However, Turkey also has a violent, thuggish, hyper-nationalist, quasi-fascist Right -- they really do resemble the Hitler's Nazis or Mussolini's Fascists in many respects, except that they lack a Hitler or a Mussolini (though not avenues to power; they were part of the ruling coalition between 1998-2003). That extreme Right is ready to use any rapprochment on the Armenian issue as an excuse to further its own agenda, and more moderate Turks (the vast majority) fear that, and not without reason. But the murder of Hrant, and the giant turn-out for his funeral, may be a watershed moment; I certainly hope so.

[germanos]

Thanks Rufus.

Do you think if the debate shifts from 'genocide' to 'war crime' or 'autrocity' it will have a better chance of getting results? (the result being reconciliation).

The funaral of Dink Hrant is being commented here as a major surprise and in that happening the murderer basically got the opposite of what he aimed for.
The speach by his widow was awesome, especially since it went beyond the armenian-turkish devide and moved on to how the youth got so violent.


On a side note: pride is often mistaken for self-esteem.

[Zoid]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly


Bullsh!t right back at ya. The Turks rounded up Armenians living in eastern Anatolia because they were suspected of sympathizing with the enemy during wartime. They left Armenians elsewhere alone -- Armenians in Istanbul, for example, lived their lives exactly as they had before the war. And, yes, there was a military order to forceably remove the Armenians to a different part of the country (similar to the US internment of West Coast Japanese in WWII -- was that genocide?). But it's never been shown that there was an order to massacre those Armenians (the Turks have always maintained that the military acted on its own -- similar to MyLai). It's certainly never been shown that there was a general order to exterminate Armenians altogether. And that's why it doesn't compare with Germany or Rwanda, and is a misuse of the term "genocide." As I said, its a war crime, a crime against humanity, an evil act -- but not genocide.

What the Turks object to is the West getting on a high horse about this when we have our own horrors that go unacknowledged. clinton caught flak in 1998 for merely suggesting that the US might apologize for slavery; no US politician would ever dare suggest that the transport of slaves to America was genocidal. What happened in the Belgian Congo or on the Trail of Tears was far worse that what happened in Turkey; where are the Western resolutions naming those things as genocidal?

That's their beef in a nutshell;
1) it wasn't genocide by the standard definition of that term, and
2) countries with a relatively recent history of exterminating indigeneous peoples and using slave labor really need to apply the same standards to themselves or STFU.

And they're right.

There's a general agreement among Western historians that the Armenian Genocide did happen. The International Association of Genocide Scholars (the major body of scholars who study genocide in North America and Europe), for instance, formally recognize the event and consider it to be undeniable. And how can the fact that the west has done its fair share of genocides as well negate the fact that the armenian genocide actually took place?

And the "sympathizing with the enemy during war time" part was a cover-up by Isamil Enver, the Minister of War, to hide the fact that he ****ed up the military campaign against Russia (in the hope of capturing Baku). Enver lost 90% of the Turkish Third Army Army in his disastrous campaign. To save his ass and save face for the turkish army he started the myth that the armenians were to blame for his failure. It's the well known tactic of diverting the public attention away from the real issue by uniting the nation against a outside (or inside enemy). For Hitler and nazis this was the jews, for Enver and the young turks it was the armenians. And of course Bush and his cronies have the arabs and al-quaida to blame. The history repeats itself...

[Barnabas]

Armenians had lived in what is now eastern Turkey for milleniums, they have a much longer history than turks in that place, more than 2500 years for sure, and if you consider Urartu to be some kind of proto-Armenia, then even longer.

Now none lives there, over 1 million of them having been killed.

Ethnic cleansing thru killing the inhabitants to me = genocide

I agree that turks didnt want to kill all armenians, so it is different with the jewish holocaust, Hitler wanted and would have killed all jews if he could,

Turks killed the armenians in eastern turkey just because Armenians were trying to secede and turks wanted to avoid losing the territory.
It was a genocide anyway


Armenians in istanbul were not a threat (altough some where killed too)

[Zoid]

Good points Brachy

[Heresson]

I'd like to reiterate that Armenians were delt with not only in eastern Anatoly. If some remained in Istanbul, it's because there were foreigners there who could see what was happening to them.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
There's a giant Holocaust monument in downtown Baltimore, and a huge statue to the Katyn massacre nearby. But while there is an African-American history museum, there is no (as far as I know) monument to the Indians or the slaves in Baltimore.

It's easier to criticise others than yourself.

http://www.exodusnews.com/worldnews/world020.htm

http://www.wfls.com/News/FLS/2006/122006/12132006/1166042015

http://www.rosecity.net/tears/tears1.html

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
There's a giant Holocaust monument in downtown Baltimore, and a huge statue to the Katyn massacre nearby. But while there is an African-American history museum, there is no (as far as I know) monument to the Indians or the slaves in Baltimore.

It's easier to criticise others than yourself.

Indians

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by LordShiva


Indians

Indian monument in DC

http://www.rbgilbert.com/log/gandhi.html

[LordShiva]

I'm actually currently living like 2 blocks from there.

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by VetLegion

Israel is a good tool to get US on your side.

Israel might be a good tool to control the Kurd opposition.

Israel is a good ally against Syrian and Iranian threats.

Israel is a good technology (military and agriculture) exporter.

Israel is also a democracy.

All that can be lived without. What about the Donmeh? Do they have an influence on things or is that conspiracy theory teritory?

Hi Vet

The alliance with Israel has a value in the larger picture, in that it is a fortifying factor in the alliance with the US. I think there's also a degree of the added bonus of what Sirotnikov said.

However, this "alliance" between the two countries is not in the sense that one would come to the help of the other in case of a war. Turkey and Israel face varying degrees of threats of different nature; those which either country is counting rather on its own forces to cope with. Arabs will not be attacking Israel in the foreseeable future and no neighbouring country is able/insane enough to attack Turkey in an open war, so it's not even a matter to discuss between us.

It is an "alliance" in the sense that both sides trust each other, and trust is the rarest of all commodities in the Middle East. Hence the wide scope of cooperation and a willingness to explore the opportunities that the other may offer.

As for the Donmeh (Dönme): it is true that there are some fringe conspiracy theories about these descendants of Jewish converts to Islam from the 17th century; that they didn't exactly convert at their heart, that they have a secret network among themselves, that they skilfully manipulate stuff, etc. However, proof for that is sketchy indeed and besides, I think there's enough mutual willingness to forge closer ties than to necessitate some outside manipulation to make it happen.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ancyrean


As for the Donmeh (Dönme): it is true that there are some fringe conspiracy theories about these descendants of Jewish converts to Islam from the 17th century; that they didn't exactly convert at their heart, that they have a secret network among themselves, that they skilfully manipulate stuff, etc. However, proof for that is sketchy indeed and besides, I think there's enough mutual willingness to forge closer ties than to necessitate some outside manipulation to make it happen.

According to Gershom Scholem, whos no fringie, but the major scholar of Jewish mysticism, the Donmeh certainly did NOT truely convert (though they were hardly "normal" Jews) and retained a seperate identity thorugh the mid 19th century at least. I dont know anythin abotu manipulative stuff, but Scholem does indicate some Young Turks had Donmeh backgrounds. AFAIK they pretty much did disappear into the general muslim pop over a hundred years ago. Certainly no connection between them and Israel-Turkish ties.

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by Brachy-Pride
So this whole issue about being friends with Turkey and helping Turks with their armenian genocide problem would be Kissinger Realism?

It is not only realism. There are profound differences between the Holocaust and the Armenian allegations of a genocide. Let's just see:

Holocaust happened on top of centuries of anti-Semitism in Germany. Its coming was announced at the highest level, before and after Nazis took over power. It was an industrial effort, seeking the most efficent ways for killing humans, experimenting on various methods, finally mass-applying the most promising one. It was a highly coordinated effort, requiring logistical precision, from roundings up to arranging train schedules, from psychological tricks to provide crowd control with the least effort to staging false train stations and signs. It was highly documented with hundreds of visible relics, concentration camps. There were tens of thousands of accomplices, guards, officers, clerks, soldiers of all sorts, each executing precise and often documented written orders. It was, as such a low that we all must hope humanity must never descend.

Armenians, on the other hand, staged a well developed uprising, conducted countless raids on Turkish villages, attacked army supply columns heading to the Eastern front. They were gambling on the fact that Turkey was losing the first world war, that it was their only opportunity to get independence like Greeks, Serbians and Bulgarians before them.

They overplayed their hand, put all their aspirations in one roll of dice. However, the Turkish government, desperate to maintain the Eastern Front and short of means to conduct classical police/anti-guerilla force, resorted to mass deportations of the entire Armenian population from Eastern Anatolia.

Orders for a "genocide" were never found, not a single document. So were plans for one made in advance. Governors along the deportation route were ordered to provide for the deportees. They failed. Scores of officials found responsible by the Ottoman Government for this disaster were tried and punished, including hanged. Later on, after the war, the occupying Allied forces frantically and comprehensively searched for incriminating evidence for a planned genocide, and they failed.

Relocated Armenians suffered terribly under harsh weather, bandits, hunger, disease. Hundreds of thousands died, perhaps up to 350.000. The number Armenians quote as 1.5 million dead during the deportation from the region is higher than the number of Armenians existed in the whole of the Empire (1.250.000).

This doesn’t lessen the sufferings of the dead, regardless of their numbers, but the lack of documents, existence of numerous orders to the contrary, the circumstances that gave rise to the decision for deportation all fall short of the label of genocide, which was meant to bring a qualitative difference from massacres or mass killings.

In summary, I think many Jews see this essential difference, and being the victims of Holocaust with its attendant horrors, are revolted that this crucial distinction might be abused in pursuit of national self-definition.

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


According to Gershom Scholem, whos no fringie, but the major scholar of Jewish mysticism, the Donmeh certainly did NOT truely convert (though they were hardly "normal" Jews) and retained a seperate identity thorugh the mid 19th century at least. I dont know anythin abotu manipulative stuff, but Scholem does indicate some Young Turks had Donmeh backgrounds. AFAIK they pretty much did disappear into the general muslim pop over a hundred years ago. Certainly no connection between them and Israel-Turkish ties.

The story of the Dönme is indeed very interesting. I totally understand if their conversion might not have been sincere, given the circumstances that forced the self-declared Jewish messiah Sabatai Sevi (Hebrew spelling?) to convert (the Sultan called him and made him choose between insisting on the Messiah stuff and lose his head, or convert to Islam and keep it).

Regardless, these people became one of the bastions of progressive and secular thinking in Turkey later on in the late 19th-early 20th centuries. I appreciate their contribution to our society as such regardless of their "true" religion .