The Ethics of Withdrawal

[Kuciwalker]

Conspiracy theories all have a fundamental flaw: they assume the ability of anyone to predict the future with any reliability.

[Proteus_MST]

Would it be too late to put Saddam back into power
and give him some excuses for the misunderstandings?

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

I think civil war in Iraq has been inevitable since about 1979. You can't have a government representing a minority keeping itself in power through draconian repression without a huge potential for it all exploding.

There are very few cases of countries coming out of that without civil war. South Africa managed it, but most don't.

[Saras]

SA was in the Commonwealth, and had educated Brits and Dutch running things, which helps a lot.

Go on, call me racist.

[Lul Thyme]

Originally posted by Elok
I don't know how much Americans can help, having never been on the ground there. If 60+% of Iraq really wanted to kill our troops, that's about fifteen million people (right?), and Kalashnikovs are slightly more common than water over there. In all likelihood, 60+% of Iraqis are just seriously pissed at America and are expressing it for the pollsters. If we had enough men to do something for real, attitudes might change. Our guys would probably be less trigger-happy if there were enough of them to actually provide meaningful security, for example. Right now they can only squat in "green zones" and hope nobody chucks a Soviet-surplus mortar over the wall. They're under continual strain and they're flipping out.

Thinking that something is ok (aka "approving") is not the same as actually doing it...

EDIT: same as che

[Guardian]

Ummm... first of all, I never thought it was a very good idea to go in there, but what's done is done and now we all just have to deal with it. Arguing about what should or should not have been done 3 - 4 years ago won't fix anything, so a better approach is to take a good look around, figure out where we are today and try to find a reasonable path to take from here. It doesn't really matter how we got here, 'cause there's no going back. Whether we like it or not, life goes on. There are no brakes and there is no reverse.

So, we are in Iraq, the country's a mess, most people don't want us there, we're losing people practically every day and we really don't seem to be achieving all that much. Was it a good idea to go in there? Like I said, no, in my opinion it wasn't.
So, is it a good idea to withdraw now?
Well, NO, in my opinion it isn't.
First of all, by going in there, we effectively took control over the immediate future of that country and with control comes a moral responsibility that we can't just walk away from when it gets to be a little unpleasant for us. We walked into this with our eyes open and we played a pretty major part in the making of the mess that we're all seeing now every day in the news. If we want to be the good guys, we can't just barge into places where we were not welcome in the first place, help make horrible messes and then just leave when it turns out that the mess is going to be hard to clean up afterwards. Whether we like it or not, we helped make this mess and we're gonna have to help clean it up, or else we really are no better than our enemies say we are. At least that's my opinion.
Second, I believe that leaving now is a bad idea because our enemies everywhere will see it as a victory if we pull out now. They will see it as a victory for their side and as proof that we're really just a bunch of no good, infidel barbarians who go around bombing countries, killing people and making horrible messes without doing much good for anybody. It will encourage and embolden them and they will recruit more followers because of it.
So, in short, I think withdrawing now is a VERY bad idea, because I believe it's morally wrong to just leave after making such a big mess and because I believe that withdrawal now would inevitably translate into a major setback in the war on terror.

But then again, perhaps we all get the enemies we deserve...

[Q Classic]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Conspiracy theories all have a fundamental flaw: they assume the ability of anyone to predict the future with any reliability.

Conspiracy theories with this administration have a fundamental flaw: they assume the compentence of this bunch of *******s, while all evidence points to their incompetence instead.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by Saras
SA was in the Commonwealth, and had educated Brits and Dutch running things, which helps a lot.

Go on, call me racist.

The Dutch are educated? I'll look on Counterglow in a whole new light now.

I'd assumed it was all just glue-sniffing.

[Saras]

The ones in SA were. I said nothing about CG or anything else.

[Guardian]

Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp

It's a character thing. I can't sit back and watch that sort of thing from the sidelines. I'd like to see troops going into Congo and Darfur too. It might not work, but it's sure worth trying.

Yes, if we go in there with a plan and a determination to make things better and with the resolve to stay there until they are, then it's definitely worth it. But not if we're just going in there to blow stuff up, kill people and then just pack up and pull out, leaving things just as bad - or worse - than before we got there.

[Lancer]

Give it back to Saddam for Christmas!

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
This of course, assumes that stability is, in fact, the actual goal. It may be that what we planned was the complete destruction of the last secular state in the ME. With the ME a total basket case showing no signs of getting their **** together anytime soon, we have a bogeyman for generations to come. Something to rally our society against and demonstrate a need for continued trillions to the military industrial complex.

You don't really believe this, do you?

[Dr Strangelove]

The problem with the arguments that the coalition has a moral responsibility to 'fix' Iraq is that the mere presence of our troops there is very much like tossing gasoline on a fire. The presence of our troops on patrol of the streets of Iraq is a continual ongoing reminder to the people of Iraq that they are an occupied country and that the government is collaborating with the occupiers. In the current state of mind of the insurgents it doesn't matter that the elections that put that government in place were fair. If foreign troops were not present in Iraq the argument that the current government is not legitimate would be weakened. Currently the Sunni insurgents claim that the Shiites, who now dominate the government are nothing but lackeys of the USA. Without our presence the governments claim to legitimacy just might be a little easier. Maybe, just maybe without our military presence in Iraq the government of Iraq might have a chance to negotiate a truce with the insurgents, or perhaps offer to repeat the election.
Frankly I'm worried that the point at which a political solution might have been possible may have passed. The intensity of internecine fighting may have reached the point where it can not be stopped without the virtual destruction of one side or another. I am concerned that we've reached a point where we will dig in and keep fighting for years until we can no longer stand it, and then when we do leave the inevitable will occur. Though there was some degree of conflict between Sunni and Shiite groups even last year, this year the conflict between them has clearly worsened. At some point in the future we may be haunted by the possibility that peace might have been feasible if we had pulled out earlier this year, before the Sunni/Shiite conflict began to intensify.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by LordShiva


You don't really believe this, do you?

There are some within Bush's cabinet who might be capable of this degree of cold-hearted calculation.

[Guardian]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
The problem with the arguments that the coalition has a moral responsibility to 'fix' Iraq is that the mere presence of our troops there is very much like tossing gasoline on a fire.

This may be true to some extent, but even so, just removing the gasoline won't stop the fire now that it's already this big. I did say it wasn't a good idea to go in there in the first place. But I am saying now that we're in there and things have gotten this bad, we have to find a better way out than just leaving - a more "honorable" way if you like - not just for Iraq's sake, but for our own sake and ultimately for the world's sake.