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The Ethics of Withdrawal

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  • The Ethics of Withdrawal

    First off, I should tell you guys that I'm now home from College and living in my nice isolated house in the sticks with its shoddy dialup connection. We might be getting broadband soon, but we're not sure when. Good internet's just not available here atm. So I might be a rare sight around here until the broadband fairy comes around to bless us with her magic silicoid dust.

    Anyway, this is not a continuation of my personal obsession with the origins of moral codes, so breathe easy. This is just a quandary brought on by an article on combat medicine in a recent issue of National Geographic. You don't really appreciate how nasty it is in Iraq until you read about people losing arms and legs and being counted among the lucky, or suffering brain injuries and going crazy. The way I put it sounds sane compared to the horrors seen in the article. And, of course, it occurred to me that this is what happens with top-notch medicine to troops with excellent armor and equipment.

    So, what happens when/if we pull out of Iraq? The current choice being presented to us is "Go big, go long, or go home." Going long--maintaining our current level of troops for a long time--sounds utterly unproductive. 150K troops just aren't enough to stem the chaos in a country as big as Iraq. We're currently endangering troops to no real purpose.

    Going home at this point means the country will transition from slowly unravelling to complete civil war, almost overnight. The Iraqi government will collapse without us holding it together, though it's coming apart already. And such a civil war could conceivably kill millions. Iran will obviously back the Shiites, and there's talk that Saudi Arabia sympathizes with the Sunnis and would support them. Meanwhile, the Turks are very nervous about the potential for an independent Kurdistan. If we pull out, this is going to turn into a full-blown puppet war between Iraq's neighbors.

    Instead of the U.S. Army trying to stomp out a dozen insurgency brushfires, militias will roam Iraq at will, looting wherever they go. There will be no reliable infrastructure. The people who now get off "lucky" as amputees will die of shock and blood loss in the street, and those with more minor wounds will die slowly and painfully of sepsis. Meanwhile, plenty of good old fashioned rape and murder will be the order of the day, along with child soldiers, food shortages, hostage-taking, and people dying of exposure after their houses are blasted into rubble.

    You can see where I'm going with this: it seems that reinstating the draft and "going big" is the only ethical choice remaining for America. Don't get me wrong--I think this war was an idiotic idea from the beginning, Saddam had nothing to do with Al Qaeda or other terrorists, and it was hopelessly bungled anyway. But it strikes me as downright shameful that we would support President Jackass as he goes off on a delusional crusade, then run home and let the people we were ostensibly bringing to freedom die by the hundreds of thousands at least. Probably we'll show our yellow bellies at the idea of a draft and pretend we're not responsible for the bloodshed somehow, but we *will* be responsible for it, and we shouldn't. Can anyone dispute that it is morally wrong to not do everything we can to hold Iraq in some semblance of order, now that we've made it all FUBAR?
    1011 1100
    Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

  • #2
    Coitus interruptus?
    Originally posted by Serb:Please, remind me, how exactly and when exactly, Russia bullied its neighbors?
    Originally posted by Ted Striker:Go Serb !
    Originally posted by Pekka:If it was possible to capture the essentials of Sepultura in a dildo, I'd attach it to a bicycle and ride it up your azzes.

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    • #3
      John McCain agrees with you, and so do I, but don't tell my mother that.
      Click here if you're having trouble sleeping.
      "We confess our little faults to persuade people that we have no large ones." - François de La Rochefoucauld

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      • #4
        I'm sure there is something against it in Leviticus, no?
        Originally posted by Serb:Please, remind me, how exactly and when exactly, Russia bullied its neighbors?
        Originally posted by Ted Striker:Go Serb !
        Originally posted by Pekka:If it was possible to capture the essentials of Sepultura in a dildo, I'd attach it to a bicycle and ride it up your azzes.

        Comment


        • #5
          But it strikes me as downright shameful that we would support President Jackass as he goes off on a delusional crusade, then run home and let the people we were ostensibly bringing to freedom die by the hundreds of thousands at least.
          I would rather be called shameful than called a hypocrite. We were never bringing anyone to freedom save in the specious rhetoric of the administration, unless your take on "freedom" is "anarchy." The civil war is already under way, and no amount of force is going to pacify the insurgents. Massive force never solves the fundamental problems of resistance; just ask any colonial power. Given the US's rules of engagement, massive force is even less able to deliver the results everyone thinks a troop increase will provide. I see your argument, and raise you - every minute we are still in Iraq is another offense against ethics.
          Lime roots and treachery!
          "Eventually you're left with a bunch of unmemorable posters like Cyclotron, pretending that they actually know anything about who they're debating pointless crap with." - Drake Tungsten

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Saras
            Coitus interruptus?
            That's right; Iraq may already be pregnant.
            Click here if you're having trouble sleeping.
            "We confess our little faults to persuade people that we have no large ones." - François de La Rochefoucauld

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            • #7
              Do you see anything un-ethical about drafting people to fight a war you admit was wrong in the first place?, half our country has voting agianst Shrub twice and have been dead set against this war from the moment it was proposed. I say if your going to draft people only republicans should be eligable.

              Earlier in the war (first year) I would have said yes, commit more of our existing military assets, thouse foks signed up voluntarily. But drafting people is over the line for anything thats not a threat on par with WWII.
              Companions the creator seeks, not corpses, not herds and believers. Fellow creators, the creator seeks - those who write new values on new tablets. Companions the creator seeks, and fellow harvesters; for everything about him is ripe for the harvest. - Thus spoke Zarathustra, Fredrick Nietzsche

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Saras
                Coitus interruptus?

                Why am I not surprised this is the first response?


                Only because Saras beat me to the punch.
                Last edited by Ogie Oglethorpe; December 18, 2006, 15:04.
                "Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson

                “In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter

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                • #9
                  Re: The Ethics of Withdrawal

                  Originally posted by Elok
                  You can see where I'm going with this: it seems that reinstating the draft and "going big" is the only ethical choice remaining for America.
                  I trust you don't mind when they pick your number from the proverbial hat to clean up the mess?
                  I've allways wanted to play "Russ Meyer's Civilization"

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
                    Do you see anything un-ethical about drafting people to fight a war you admit was wrong in the first place?, half our country has voting agianst Shrub twice and have been dead set against this war from the moment it was proposed. I say if your going to draft people only republicans should be eligable.

                    Earlier in the war (first year) I would have said yes, commit more of our existing military assets, thouse foks signed up voluntarily. But drafting people is over the line for anything thats not a threat on par with WWII.
                    The problem is, that there were enough people who wanted Bush (and the Iraq war).
                    Although it sounds unfair to those who didn´t want the war (and Bush) first place, this is the problem with a democracy, i.e. you have to fix the mess that the majority wanted a few years ago (and sadly it seems like the majority wanted the war [and/or support their president no matter how stupid decisiopns he made]).

                    IMHO you are bound by your honor to try your best to clean up the mess your chickenhawks produced so that the people in Iraq might have a chance to really enjoy the freedom that AFAIK your President promised to them

                    So yes, I think Eloks right with going in big.
                    Although I don´t think that it is enough to supply more troops,
                    they should also get better support (training and materials) to do their job.
                    Tamsin (Lost Girl): "I am the Harbinger of Death. I arrive on winds of blessed air. Air that you no longer deserve."
                    Tamsin (Lost Girl): "He has fallen in battle and I must take him to the Einherjar in Valhalla"

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Saras
                      Coitus interruptus?
                      Damn! Beat me to it.......

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                      • #12
                        You can see where I'm going with this: it seems that reinstating the draft and "going big" is the only ethical choice remaining for America.
                        Militias are the problem, not the solution. A bunch of edgy, trigger-happy conscripts are unlikely to be useful for humane peacekeeping.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Saras
                          Coitus interruptus?
                          great minds think alike

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                          • #14
                            Are you certain that if the coalition troops leave a sizeable number of the faction members won't conclude that the reason for their fight hasn't gone away? Right now the insurgents are fighting the coaltion as well as other religious factions. If the coaltion leaves they will no longer have the coalition occupation as a reason for fighting. Those insurgents who do not have the desire for an internecene war just might go stop fighting. The government will at least have a chance to rally anyone left in Iraq who doesn't want to see the nation dissolve into civil war. So long as the coaltion has troops in Iraq no one will respect the authority of the seated government.
                            "I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!

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                            • #15
                              And I thought this thread was going to be about a birth control method.
                              Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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