The Ethics of Withdrawal

[Solly]

Drug addicted prisoners SHOULD NOT be given heroin (or methadone).

[Aeson]

I don't think the draft is a solution. Going "big" could be, but that's not just a US military thing. Military should only be a small part of the solution.

I think if we really want to fix the mess we are in in Iraq we have to first admit our mistakes, apologize for how we've screwed things up, look for international support (probably funded by us and giving operation control over to the UN) that includes regional powers as well, be open to have our leaders take responsibility for their actions in international court, start treating foreigners or "illegal combatants" (or our own citizens) as we would want to be treated. That is, no more being held indefinitely without trial... no more debate about what is and what is not torture and who is protected from it... just give the same protections to those in our custody regardless of their origin. then spend far more money on building Iraq's infrastructure than military. A tax would do more good than a draft IMO. Needless to say I don't see any of those things happening.

If we were doing those things even I would join up. But there's no point to sending more solidiers over if we're just going to continue to undermine their sacrifices by pushing our own greedy agendas, creating international (and homegrown) disgust at our actions, giving the Iraqi people little to not reason to support us, and having no concrete idea what we're actually trying to accomplish. (At least publicly and as official US doctrine... I would think that at least some of those calling the shots and backing them must have their own clear agendas that they do not make public because of how unsupported they would be.)

[chequita guevara]

It was morally wrong to go in. It's morally wrong to stay. The people of Iraq don't want us there. In fact, a majority of Iraqis think it is acceptable to attack Americans.

The only moral action left for us to take is to leave. Now!

[Guynemer]

There is no moral, ethical solution to this problem. Every solution is varying degrees of bad to worse to "catastro****."

Yes, we broke it. But there is no putting this Humpty Dumpty back together again. In fact, one could make an argument that civil war and dissolution of the Iraqi state in its current, colonial form is the best possible outcome.

Regardless, it is very, very difficult to see how our continued activities in Iraq in any capacity are going to help the situation.

[Elok]

Impaler: I'm not interested in partisan crap. I didn't support Bush at all--though it hardly mattered what the public thought, he was going to do whatever he wanted regardless. I'm talking about acting collectively and in unison as a nation, staggering and unprecedented as it may seem given the way things have gone of late. We, as a nation, started this mess, and we as a nation need to do whatever we can to fix it.

It's not about punishment for anyone; military service should not be used as punishment for incompetence, as the conscripts will only endanger more people with their incompetence. Punishment should be punishment, ideally in the form of a public flogging for everyone awarded a no-bid contract. But now I'm just dreaming.

Tattila: The military would have to be pretty hard up to use me--clumsy, underweight asthmatics don't make good soldiers. The damned war would be over by the time they got me into shape, assuming I didn't get a dishonorable discharge for freaking out and decking my drill sergeant when he yelled at me in boot camp. But my brother is in the army already, and my nephew is interested in joining the Marines for some reason. I'm not just writing checks with others' money. I suspect it'd be a good deal less dangerous for individual troops if we had a decent number, though. They're basically playing musical chairs with the insurgency over there at the moment, kicking them out of a city only to have them take it back when they move on to kick 'em out of the next city. They don't have enough people to patrol properly, or to give the men a proper rest. It's a lot harder to plant IEDs when there's a proper patrol going around.

Others: I don't think the insurgents just want to kick us out and then be done with it. They're actively going after cops and civilians. They want to dissolve the government and set up...God/Allah knows what, but it involves them on top, I'm sure. And given the rash of mosque-bombings that have already occurred, I don't think they'll let bygones be bygones. First order of business is ethnic cleansing, second is blaming all problems on the infidels in the neighboring state as a precursor to attack.

[Arrian]

I could write up a big long post, but I'll take the lazy option and simply point to Aeson's. That pretty much nails it.

Since he is likely correct that the US government (and American public) has no real interest in what I consider to be "doing it right" then perhaps it's best to simply withdraw. I'm not decided on that yet, but I'm leaning in that direction.

-Arrian

[Deity Dude]

Originally posted by Lorizael
John McCain agrees with you, and so do I, but don't tell my mother that.

McCain supports more troops but not a draft. More troops is probably the ultimate answer but how many would it take. The last time Iraq was occupied militarily for any length of time was just after WWI by the English. They sent 410,000 troops. I havn't heard anyone talk about sending in another 250,000 troops (if we even could get that many voluntarily)

A draft is the worst possible thing. No one should ever be forced to give up their freedom at the government's or anyone's will.

[Impaler[WrG]]

I'm also guessing that Iraq had what maybe a 5th its current population imediatly after WWI so thats the equivilent of 2 million soldiars today.

[Q Classic]

Originally posted by Lorizael


That's right; Iraq may already be pregnant.

Ms. Rice did say that these troubles in Iraq are just the birthing pains of a new Middle East.

[Q Classic]

Also, why are we still there? We got rid of Saddam!

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!

[Q Classic]

I especially can't figure out why you people want to stay there. Ol' Rumsfeld told us that when you look at it from above, in a plane, via satellite, or from here in the States, it's not really all that bad.

All these news reports about an insurgency are really just reporters who are too close to the problem.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Q Cubed

All these news reports about an insurgency are really just reporters who are too close to the problem.

Then maybe they should move a couple feet back from their keyboards.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Q Cubed

Ms. Rice did say that these troubles in Iraq are just the birthing pains of a new Middle East.

Yeah, well this labor has gone on long enough. I say its time for a C-section!

[Q Classic]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove


Yeah, well this labor has gone on long enough. I say its time for a C-section!

You are the doctor...

[Provost Harrison]

Originally posted by Saras
Coitus interruptus?

My thoughts exactly!