Drunken teen stumbles into wrong home

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ming
Easy for you to say in the light of day with no risk to your loved ones.

The kid could have had a gun or knife... the guy didn't know that. You seem to think it was so obvious at the time... but what if he had stopped and the kid pulled out a gun a shot him? Even a drunk with a weapon can kill or injure somebody.

If he had a gun or a knife the dumbest thing you could do is APPROACH HIM.

He was in the basement away from all of the guy's family. If you don't know what he's got on him, and he's crouching on the ground, you either shouldn't touch him (tell him to stay put), and if he tries to flee then tackle him or whatever. You've got him cornered -- HE'S IN YOUR BASEMENT.

They had him outmuscled, outnumbered, and they were both sober. He was out of line, regardless of what you say the PERCEIVED THREAT might be.

If we get into a spirited argument in real life and I have the PERCEIVED THREAT that you, as an American, are packing heat...does this let me beat your ass and smash your head into the concrete while threating to kill you?

[Asher]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Really? But I thought it was so clear the man was guilty.

So is OJ.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Asher

If he had a gun or a knife the dumbest thing you could do is APPROACH HIM.

He was in the basement away from all of the guy's family. If you don't know what he's got on him, and he's crouching on the ground, you either shouldn't touch him (tell him to stay put), and if he tries to flee then tackle him or whatever. You've got him cornered -- HE'S IN YOUR BASEMENT.

If he's got a gun or even a knife, you are screwed unless you totally take him down.

They had him outmuscled, outnumbered, and they were both sober. He was out of line, regardless of what you say the PERCEIVED THREAT might be.

What's the line from civ... never take a sword to a gunfight... outmuscled and outnumbered means nothing.

If we get into a spirited argument in real life and I have the PERCEIVED THREAT that you, as an American, are packing heat...does this let me beat your ass and smash your head into the concrete while threating to kill you?

Not the same situation... Here, we had somebody who was breaking the law by trespassing. The homeowner has no clue how dangerious the threat is... but his wife, child and him could be at risk... a little different than a spirited argument

It's a scarey situation...

[Arrian]

Wrong home is right!

While the homeowner may have been a tad excessive, I am inclined to cut him some slack.

-Arrian

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ming
If he's got a gun or even a knife, you are screwed unless you totally take him down.

Only if you're mentally retarded or otherwise a redneck brute.

He's in your basement. Go up the stairs, close the door and barricade it til the police arrive.

Even then, once you have him pinned you don't need to smash his head on the ground.

Not the same situation... Here, we had somebody who was breaking the law by trespassing. The homeowner has no clue how dangerious the threat is...

When he's got the kid pinned, he sure as hell should have some idea how dangerous the threat is. Unless he's a brute that likes beating people.

[Wezil]

Talk radio out of Toronto is currently talking about this if anyone cares. 1010 CFRB - they are online.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Asher
When he's got the kid pinned, he sure as hell should have some idea how dangerous the threat is. Unless he's a brute that likes beating people.

Some is the operative word here. The guy CAN NOT know for sure. Even you admit it with your statement

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ming
Some is the operative word here. The guy CAN NOT know for sure. Even you admit it with your statement

Actually I was being sarcastic.

If you've got a guy pinned you don't need to smash his head into the concrete. FACT.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Solver
Hell... so these aren't just legends that it's quite common in America not to look your door. I can't imagine that, particularly late in the evening / at night!

Yup, its true. Now here in the inner DC suburbs we're sort of at the edge - very few people would sleep without the door locked, but someone who did wouldnt be considered insane. Just a tad odd. And go much further out into the country, or further north into the belt of lower crime states, and it shifts that much further. Its not at all uncommon to hear folks from rural or even some exurban areas talking about not locking their doors. Id imagine whats true in place like Vermont or Minnesota is just as true in Canada.

[Arrian]

I always lock our door, even though I live in a nice neighborhood. I figure I've got a lock, I'll use it.

-Arrian

[Jon Miller]

In Oregon we would often not lock the doors even when no one was home. We changed this after I left hom to go to college (in 1998).

This annoyed me a few times, cause I never had the key.

JM

[KrazyHorse]

I lock my door when I go to sleep or when I'm out. I don't worry about it when I'm awake.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
Reasonable force for a Home-Owner defending the home from an intruder is IMHO much like that a police officer has.

Except that a police officer is trained to react to such situations, to rationally judge the dangers, to prioritize ways to deal with them, and whats more doesnt have his own loved ones in danger (normally). And goes to work every day expecting to deal with situations like this.

To expect of a homeowner, whos NOT so trained, who wasnt expecting such a thing, who cant necessarily judge his opponents strength (and no, who hasnt memorized the stats on strength by age) whos got dependents at risk, to react in the moment as calmly and rationally as a cop, is NOT reasonable.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian
I always lock our door, even though I live in a nice neighborhood. I figure I've got a lock, I'll use it.

-Arrian

Ok, its 11 PM, youre, exhausted, youve settled into bed, and then you realize that say, your kid was the last person to run outside (to go study the moon say) and that she MIGHT have forgotten to lock the door on the way in. Say theres a 30% chance she forgot. NOW do you run downstairs to check? Or do you risk it?

QOTM would go downstairs to check. Shed probably do so even if we lived in someplace much safer. But then shes a tad irrational about crime statistics. I would have to think about it.

All kinds of other borderline cases (no ones home, one member of the family is keyless, do you leave the door unlocked? Expect them to cool their heels till someone is home?

[Ming]

Originally posted by Asher
If you've got a guy pinned you don't need to smash his head into the concrete. FACT.

You might have him pinned to the ground, but that doesn't preclude the person getting his arm loose, pulling a gun or knife and killing you... FACT