Ken Kutaragi replaced as president of Sony's gaming unit

[Jaakko]

The fixation on processing power as essential for good games also baffles me, seeing as how we're having this discussion on a Civ site. It's more than a bit ironic.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
Cept you get the double features of DVD player and online gaming.

Eh?

The Wii has no DVD player, and its online gaming is a joke?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Jaakko
The fixation on processing power as essential for good games also baffles me, seeing as how we're having this discussion on a Civ site. It's more than a bit ironic.

No one said it's essential for good games, just that if you want to push the envelope with games you're more than likely going to need horsepower under the hood to do it.

For example, Kuci's wet dream of all of the physics interaction of throwing things around in a Star Wars world. I'm not sure you realize how much of a physics system this would need to implement, and then the extra RAM costs such a system would incur also (it adds lots of computational complexity in that it needs to constantly calculate the interaction between many objects in the scene, it adds lots of memory complexity in that it needs to store lots of dynamic information of the scene, plus additional static information for all subjects, such as mass).

And, for all intents and purposes, the Xbox 360 is the pretty ultimate gaming machine right now. I wouldn't mind if such a Wiimote became available as an accessory for the 360, but building your entire console based on the control methods and letting everything else languish into obsolescence is a dangerous strategy -- one that wasn't necessary.

Computational power is not all about graphics. It advances the physics system and the AI systems as well, also gives you a much larger "playground" in the world. They are very, very real drivers of game innovation and ignoring that is a big mistake.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Elok
Nobody even bothers defending Sony anymore around here.

Lauri does

[Jaakko]

Originally posted by Asher

No one said it's essential for good games, just that if you want to push the envelope with games you're more than likely going to need horsepower under the hood to do it.

For example, Kuci's wet dream of all of the physics interaction of throwing things around in a Star Wars world. I'm not sure you realize how much of a physics system this would need to implement, and then the extra RAM costs such a system would incur also (it adds lots of computational complexity in that it needs to constantly calculate the interaction between many objects in the scene, it adds lots of memory complexity in that it needs to store lots of dynamic information of the scene, plus additional static information for all subjects, such as mass).

And, for all intents and purposes, the Xbox 360 is the pretty ultimate gaming machine right now. I wouldn't mind if such a Wiimote became available as an accessory for the 360, but building your entire console based on the control methods and letting everything else languish into obsolescence is a dangerous strategy -- one that wasn't necessary.

Computational power is not all about graphics. It advances the physics system and the AI systems as well, also gives you a much larger "playground" in the world. They are very, very real drivers of game innovation and ignoring that is a big mistake.

Games of the ongoing decade have seen very little innovation despite all the brouhaha about processing power. They just look prettier but are all cast from the same genre molds. The most innovative games come from weird Japanese people or small US/Euro/Russian indy developers, and seldom require the latest in computing power. Will Wright is probably the only big name really pushing the gaming envelope.

Wee is a glimmer of hope, because its main selling point is about challenging the conventional.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Elok
No, to be fair he also doesn't seem to understand the appeal of gaming without a pad

I can guarantee you if the remote were released by MS Asher would be its biggest fan. He's done that before: criticize a feature in something else and then brag about how it made it into the newest MS product.

[Elok]

I was thinking something along those lines myself. Some excellent games came out of small studios with wacky ideas and a low budget back in the day. Low budgets aren't possible with super-high-end technology and equally high expectations, though. You need a good couple of million to do stuff like that. And nobody's willing to risk a couple of million on a wacky idea. Plus complicated games take longer to develop and are more prone to bugs, plus they attract numbskull fanboys like flies (what was once called The FFVII Effect) with the flashing lights and pretty colors. I know I'm not the first person to think of or say this; I've read the same thing all over the net.

With that aside, Wii has some powerful advantages going for it. First of all, it's priced a good deal higher than it needs to be, yet it's still cheaper than the competition by about $100 IIRC. I don't think the X360 can shave off that much that soon, and if the DS is raping the PSP as badly as I've read in this thread, Nintendo can afford to dump just as much as MS can. Sure, the Gamecube didn't sell too great, but the XBox took a bloody long time to turn a profit itself.

Secondly, thanks to Sony's stupidity, Wii is effectively saleable as the only new console this Xmas. More PS3s won't be shipping anytime soon, and even if they did Sony couldn't afford to drop the price to anything halfway-reasonable. "Junior wanted a PS3 this Christmas? Not a chance, but that OTHER new console is still in stock, and it's cheaper than that XBox thing that's been around a year already. He'll want the newest thing."

Third, "gimmick" or not, the Wiimote allows for forms of gameplay that aren't possible on the X360. Plus it looks a lot more attractive to a normal person, since it doesn't conjure up images of fat D&D players slumped in a papasan in the dark somewhere shouting about n00bs while picking Doritos crumbs out of their clothes with their sweaty fingers. It's not just that buttons are intimidating; our image of hardcore gamers is of repulsive troll-beings one step removed from the guys in the back of a dirty movie theater. And it's hard to say whether that one step is a step down or a step up. Nobody wants to risk turning into one of those....things! Anyway, despite Sony's ripping off the motion sensors with their sixaxis BS, the Wii is effectively running unopposed in terms of the kind of experience it offers. Whereas the PS3, pitiful though it is, is still technically competing with the XBox 360.

[Kuciwalker]

Sure, the Gamecube didn't sell too great, but the XBox took a bloody long time to turn a profit itself.

It never did. MS is still $4 billion in the hole on the Xbox/Xbox 360 project.

[Kuciwalker]

Third, "gimmick" or not, the Wiimote allows for forms of gameplay that aren't possible on the X360. Plus it looks a lot more attractive to a normal person, since it doesn't conjure up images of fat D&D players slumped in a papasan in the dark somewhere shouting about n00bs while picking Doritos crumbs out of their clothes with their sweaty fingers. It's not just that buttons are intimidating; our image of hardcore gamers is of repulsive troll-beings one step removed from the guys in the back of a dirty movie theater. And it's hard to say whether that one step is a step down or a step up. Nobody wants to risk turning into one of those....things!

Moreover, the Remote is just that - a remote. A very unintimidating device to non-gamers/older people. They use them all the time anyway for their TV, VCR, DVD player, TiVo, and those all have a ton of buttons.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
I can guarantee you if the remote were released by MS Asher would be its biggest fan. He's done that before: criticize a feature in something else and then brag about how it made it into the newest MS product.

Like what?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Elok
With that aside, Wii has some powerful advantages going for it. First of all, it's priced a good deal higher than it needs to be, yet it's still cheaper than the competition by about $100 IIRC.

$50, and likely to be $50 more than the 360 in a few months.

I don't think the X360 can shave off that much that soon, and if the DS is raping the PSP as badly as I've read in this thread, Nintendo can afford to dump just as much as MS can.

To be fair, the PSP is doing better in North America than it is in Japan, which is what those numbers are.

And no, Nintendo cannot afford to dump just as much as MS can. For a few reasons: corporate culture (they're penny pinching bastards, hence ripping us off with the Wii), its cash reserves are nowhere near as deep as MS'.

Secondly, thanks to Sony's stupidity, Wii is effectively saleable as the only new console this Xmas. More PS3s won't be shipping anytime soon, and even if they did Sony couldn't afford to drop the price to anything halfway-reasonable. "Junior wanted a PS3 this Christmas? Not a chance, but that OTHER new console is still in stock, and it's cheaper than that XBox thing that's been around a year already. He'll want the newest thing."

That's not really true, as the 360 was like the PS3 last year and not generally available. This is the first holiday season where it's really available -- and I think you overestimate Nintendo's supply capabilities.

Plus it looks a lot more attractive to a normal person, since it doesn't conjure up images of fat D&D players slumped in a papasan in the dark somewhere shouting about n00bs while picking Doritos crumbs out of their clothes with their sweaty fingers.

Err...actually it invokes images of Star Wars Ki.

[Elok]

I could have sworn I heard Asher yelling something about the XBox finally breaking even on a unit-by-unit basis. Huh. So...Nintendo is currently the only one of the three that's actually making money, with MS on a massive dumping spree and Sony trying to sell overpriced electronic snake oil nobody will buy? Is that the size of it?

[Kuciwalker]

Offline messaging in ICQ, for one. You dissed it when someone brought it up as a reason for using ICQ ("Instant message is supposed to be just that; if you want to leave something, use email."), and then listed it at the top in a brag thread about some new version of MSN Messenger.

xpost*2

[Asher]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Moreover, the Remote is just that - a remote. A very unintimidating device to non-gamers/older people. They use them all the time anyway for their TV, VCR, DVD player, TiVo, and those all have a ton of buttons.

You seemed to contract yourself pretty readily.

First of all you say they're not intimidated by a bunch of buttons on their remotes...but they would be on a controller?

Second of all, my mother is intimidated by remotes. And I guarantee you it's not the only one.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Elok
I could have sworn I heard Asher yelling something about the XBox finally breaking even on a unit-by-unit basis. Huh.

That means they're no long losing money for each console they sell.

So...Nintendo is currently the only one of the three that's actually making money, with MS on a massive dumping spree and Sony trying to sell overpriced electronic snake oil nobody will buy? Is that the size of it?

Yes.