Ken Kutaragi replaced as president of Sony's gaming unit

[Asher]

Originally posted by Verto
Of course, I could be wrong, but I'm glad Nintendo is trying. Asher can bash on them all he wants, but Nintendo at doing more than any other company to keep gaming fresh. The 360 isn't offering anything that the original didn't, except better graphics. XBL is good, but I myself am not that interested in the Arcade; the demo feature is nice, but few of the games end up being worth the time it takes to download; the "media center" experience is also nice, but I don't find myself using that feature all that much.

All Nintendo has done is take previous technology pioneered by Microsoft in ~1999 (accelerometer/gyroscope Sidewinder pad) and added an infrared sensor to it, making it the default controller.

It makes gaming fresh from that perspective. It's unfortunate you're not interested in the Xbox Live Arcade, because I think that -- by itself -- is more innovative than the controller. Combined with XNA, users can make their own games VERY easily on the console and have it distributed by XBLA. Small, indy studios can make games faster and cheaper and get them out to a wide audience. Retro games can be relived.

XBLA is getting better and better, and as more indy content becomes available it'll keep going that way. For all of the whining a lot of the people here do about how innovation has gone to the wayside as megastudios churn out formulaic blockbuster-style games, XBLA is the only solution out there to give indy studios a chance. It allows quirky, innovative games to get distribution and to be made with ease.

It's something that actually will impact true gameplay, not just a control mechanism. THAT is innovation, and THAT is "keeping it fresh".

For what it's worth, both Sony and Nintendo are now looking to copy it. But you know it won't be as easy, nor the platform of choice for gamedevs to use.

[Kuciwalker]

All Nintendo has done is take previous technology pioneered by Microsoft in ~1999 (accelerometer/gyroscope Sidewinder pad)

Oh, come one, everyone had thought of that sort of thing.

and added an infrared sensor to it, making it the default controller.

Yeah, they "only" gave it the ability to actually point at stuff. The IR sensor is rather important.

[Kuciwalker]

Retro games can be relived.

If you want to relive retro games you'd get a Wii, with NES, SNES, Genesis, and N64 games on it.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

Retro games can be relived.

If you want to relive retro games you'd get a Wii, with NES, SNES, Genesis, and N64 games on it.

I'm already playing NES, SNES, Genesis games...

Double Dragon is coming soon. As with a ****load of other...Worms, etc.

Also, Street Fighter II. Contra. Gauntlet. Defender. Mortal Kombat. DOOM

Third parties are already on board on XBL...only Nintendo-developed games won't be on there.

Edit: I'll note a lot of these are even improved over the originals. Eg, they support online play over XBL, including voice support. Contra coop online.

[Elok]

Uh, I watched the SWK video. There's no Wii involved. Nor does the Wii involve spinning in circles and playing kung-fu master with a pole. It does involve activities more physically demanding than twitching your thumbs, but no videos I've seen of people using the Wii look that ridiculous. The only way to look that silly while gaming is with the old Sega Activator--which was horribly confusing and non-intuitive in addition to requiring you to spaz about.

DDR might have died out, but you'll notice that while it was popular, people were willing to play it despite the fact that it made them look like utter cretins. Normal people don't mind looking a little silly to have a good time. Nobody would ever dance if that were the case.

Now you're saying that the Wii might tie with the original XBox in terms of performance? That's still a big leap ahead of where they were with the Gamecube. Good enough for me. Maybe they can't do Half-Life 2, but they can do, say, a version of Halo 2 that lets you dual wield at two separate targets like I mentioned earlier.

And from what you've said about XBLA, it sounds like it has the potential to become Geocities or Myspace for a video game console. There may be stuff worth paying attention to, but if it's as easy to use as you claim the good stuff will soon be drowning in derivative hunks of crap generated by furries and skater idiots and who knows who else. It doesn't have to take a million bucks, but it does take talent and a dedicated effort to make something good. But in every community of amateur developers, nine out of ten efforts will be by witless daydreaming losers who try anyway.

[Asher]

There may be stuff worth paying attention to, but if it's as easy to use as you claim the good stuff will soon be drowning in derivative hunks of crap generated by furries and skater idiots and who knows who else. It doesn't have to take a million bucks, but it does take talent and a dedicated effort to make something good. But in every community of amateur developers, nine out of ten efforts will be by witless daydreaming losers who try anyway.

The absolute crap won't make it on the mainstream XBLA, that stuff's selected by the content directors.

The development tools to make games for the Xbox 360 for deployment on XBLA is free to download and works on 360s already: http://msdn.microsoft.com/directx/XNA/default.aspx

It's a customized version of the real software SDK game devs use, including performance tools.

[ixnay]

I am just going to throw in here that my wife and I picked up a Wii and have been having an absolute blast with it - way more fun than any other games we've played in a long time. The controls are not awkward and I most certainly do not feel ripped off.

In fact, over Thanksgiving Wii Sports alone convinced my parents to get a Wii for themselves (my dad has never played games and my mom stuck exclusively to PC gaming). Nintendo is certainly doing a good job of making it accessible to new gamers from my perspective.

[Elok]

Hm. So in essence they're inviting their customers to do their work for them? Asher, are you familiar with phrases such as "you get what you pay for" and "there's no such thing as a free lunch?" The more I think about it, the more I wonder: who has the free time and talent to make a good game for no money within the four years or so before the XBox 720 or what-have-you comes out? Most people have jobs. Or would somebody be paying them to make these games?

This is assuming we're talking about something genuinely innovative and not a glorified mod. You mentioned Small Arms, and I'll grant you that looks good, but those guys sound exceptional.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Elok
Hm. So in essence they're inviting their customers to do their work for them?

Oh give me a break.

MS spend billions of dollars developing games, they get sh*t for it by the people who think it's harming innovation.

MS gives indy game developers and home hobbiests the same tools used by game developers to make their own games for the platform, and you still give them sh*t for it.

They're giving the best of both worlds (blockbuster games, indy games), giving Indy developers their first practical source of revenue and exposure, and you find something to nitpick with it? I'm speachless.

Asher, are you familiar with phrases such as "you get what you pay for" and "there's no such thing as a free lunch?" The more I think about it, the more I wonder: who has the free time and talent to make a good game for no money within the four years or so before the XBox 720 or what-have-you comes out? Most people have jobs. Or would somebody be paying them to make these games?

Ask the people who made Counterstrike, genius.

The developers also get the majority revenue stream for XBL downloads of it.

You mentioned Small Arms, and I'll grant you that looks good, but those guys sound exceptional.

And if you spent any time at all researching this before your comment, you'll see they're far from the only ones making indy games for XBLA with this method.

[Asher]

For what it's worth, I'm one of those losers with a job that is making a game in my spare time. It's something I enjoy, and a lot of other people with some pretty good technical skills also enjoy. Some people build trains, some people build model airplanes, I build games.

And it doesn't matter if Xbox 720 or whatever comes out. Again, if you researched this before commenting, these games utilize the XNA framework, which is built on the .NET Framework, which means it's platform agnostic. These same games don't even need to be recompiled to run on Windows Vista and Xbox 360, even though they're completely different architectures. The 720 should be no problem.

[Elok]

I don't know what "speach" is, but "speechless" typically means you shut up. And I don't deny that indy games can be good, by which I mean small groups of low-budget professionals. Some of them may well take up XBox on its offer, and goody for them. But if you think turning scripting powers loose on your average schmo will result in a renaissance of some sort, you're smoking some wacky tobaccy. Those people who sort the good from the bad will soon be flooded by a blast of digital sewage featuring the mighty, poorly-ripped graphics of InuYasha vs. Goku in a deadly faceoff of poor hit detection. And that's just the ones who actually go through with it without getting discouraged.

Counterstrike IS a mod, Ash. Specifically, a mod of Half-Life, IIRC. Different models for the guns, different damage calculations, various other changes, all relatively minor. Building a game from the ground up is a bit more demanding. Even making a good Civ2 scenario involves serious work; actually making a game is much worse, especially when you're not getting paid and even more so if you're trying to do something genuinely unprecedented. The good games from XBLA will be few and far between, just by simple laws of probability.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Elok
Counterstrike IS a mod, Ash. Specifically, a mod of Half-Life, IIRC. Different models for the guns, different damage calculations, various other changes, all relatively minor.

Relatively minor?? WTF?

It's basically a whole new game built on the Half-Life engine.

You seem to be under the impression that indy studios can't base their games and "mod" and existing engine too, but they can. Several XBLA titles coming out are using the Unreal 3.0 Engine.

Building a game from the ground up is a bit more demanding.

Please read more about what you're talking about. This is getting tedious since you're out to lunch.

The allure of XNA is how little work developers have to do to get games up and running. There are tutorials online that get a basic game up and running in under an hour.

I understand very much the concept of signal-to-noise with regards to hobbiest games. I also understand that fresh ideas can come out of people who don't need to answer to big companies like Nintendo who don't want to risk very much (eg, games like Mario Golf ad naseum).

[DinoDoc]

God damn people. I like the Wii. Asher like the 360. Others seem willing to give the Wii a chance. Is there really any need to carry on the endless *****ing that won't convince anyone? Some of you seriously need to get laid.

[Kuciwalker]

I understand very much the concept of signal-to-noise with regards to hobbiest games. I also understand that fresh ideas can come out of people who don't need to answer to big companies like Nintendo who don't want to risk very much (eg, games like Mario Golf ad naseum).

Do you realize the absurdity of that statement in this thread?

[Asher]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
God damn people. I like the Wii. Asher like the 360. Others seem willing to give the Wii a chance. Is there really any need to carry on the endless *****ing that won't convince anyone? Some of you seriously need to get laid.

Why do you think I was away for a while?