Ken Kutaragi replaced as president of Sony's gaming unit

[Elok]

Oh geez, Asher. There are two markets for the Wii, effectively. The casual-gamer market involves mostly the Wiimote. The other market (old Nintendo diehards and SSB groupies), will already have the Gamecube controller required to play the games like SSB which use it. If the casual-gamer market expresses interest in using the Gamecube pad, I don't doubt that Nintendo will pack the GC pad in. Or they might use the "Wii Classic" controller instead, which I believe is sold separately too at the moment, but that's a good deal less friendly than a pad that's been on the market for years already, obviously. Currently, the Gamecube pad is employed in A. playing GC games on the Wii, and B. playing GC game sequels on the Wii, whose target market is already pretty well defined and already has a GC controller. I really don't know how to express this more simply.

Nor do I consider this an outrageous cheat by any means. To use your example, the PS2 didn't include memory cards, but then PS2 memory cards are different from the old PS1 memory cards which the majority of PS2 owners already had--hence the analogy is flawed.

[Kuciwalker]

SSB is a complex game with simple controls. Q^3 was complaining about complex controls because he thought it had combos a la most other fighters. It doesn't.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Elok
Oh geez, Asher. There are two markets for the Wii, effectively. The casual-gamer market involves mostly the Wiimote. The other market (old Nintendo diehards and SSB groupies), will already have the Gamecube controller required to play the games like SSB which use it. If the casual-gamer market expresses interest in using the Gamecube pad, I don't doubt that Nintendo will pack the GC pad in. Or they might use the "Wii Classic" controller instead, which I believe is sold separately too at the moment, but that's a good deal less friendly than a pad that's been on the market for years already, obviously. Currently, the Gamecube pad is employed in A. playing GC games on the Wii, and B. playing GC game sequels on the Wii, whose target market is already pretty well defined and already has a GC controller. I really don't know how to express this more simply.

Nor do I consider this an outrageous cheat by any means. To use your example, the PS2 didn't include memory cards, but then PS2 memory cards are different from the old PS1 memory cards which the majority of PS2 owners already had--hence the analogy is flawed.

I still do not buy this at all. You're making the case that the Wii is aimed at two markets: Gamecube owners and Wiimote players.

I think it's asking a lot for most people who want to play SSBM to have Gamecube controllers laying around to do it. Otherwise they have to go find them and buy them just to play a game, which is absurd.

If Nintendo is going to allow games on the Wii to not use the Wiimote, then they must bundle the Gamecube controller as well. Not doing so is tacky and pure screw-the-game bring-on-the-profits nonsense.

[Kuciwalker]

I think it's asking a lot for most people who want to play SSBM to have Gamecube controllers laying around to do it.

Not really, since SSBM is a Gamecube game...

[Elok]

Originally posted by Asher
So why is this a good example of what Nintendo is going for?

It's either a simple game or it's a complex one. Just because its controls are simple doesn't mean the game is, and simple controls doesn't make it accessible or appealing if the mechanics themselves are complicated.

You need to make up your mind -- is SSB simple or complex?

It can be either, depending on the skill of the players. Chess has pretty simple rules, and two kids can play chess against one another and enjoy it, but the game also allows for an incredibly complex form of play between masters like Fischer and Kasparov. I'm not pretending that SSB is "as good a game as chess," or anything like that, but the same basic phenomenon is at work. Easy to play, difficult to master.

And as I said in my last post, the market for SSBB isn't identical to the market for the Wii itself.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Asher


I still do not buy this at all. You're making the case that the Wii is aimed at two markets: Gamecube owners and Wiimote players.

I think it's asking a lot for most people who want to play SSBM to have Gamecube controllers laying around to do it. Otherwise they have to go find them and buy them just to play a game, which is absurd.

If Nintendo is going to allow games on the Wii to not use the Wiimote, then they must bundle the Gamecube controller as well. Not doing so is tacky and pure screw-the-game bring-on-the-profits nonsense.

Its not that big of a stretch actually. Most casual casual gamers will likely have a game cube as they are dirt cheap at $50 used. No need investing in anything more than that. Wii casual gamers very well may see the allure of the controller and have the benefit of continueing all those casual GC games.

Seriously the casual gamers are probably fairly aligned with Gamecube users.

[Asher]

Most casual casual gamers

If most casual casual gamers make up the Gamecube buyers, Nintendo has already lost.

It's their hopes that such people own no consoles at all -- a new market.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Cept you get the double features of DVD player and online gaming.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Adn remember the intent may not be a shot at number 1 in the market but merely knocking out #2 sony.

Market dyamics change completley when there are only two competitors.

[MRT144]

ogie, asher doesnt understand the idea of not playing for #1. Its part of the reasons he's succesful and part of the reason he's a dick.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

There is nothing wrong with niche strategies as long as the organization is well aware that is the strategy.

[Jaakko]

You need to understand that Asher's problem with the Wii is solely the lack of a Microsoft logo. All the posturing is just self-validation of that basic sentiment.

[Elok]

Originally posted by Jaakko
You need to understand that Asher's problem with the Wii is solely the lack of a Microsoft logo. All the posturing is just self-validation of that basic sentiment.

No, to be fair he also doesn't seem to understand the appeal of gaming without a pad, and he's really hung up on raw power because he's used to the sort of games that require the ability to calculate massive amounts of stuff (and by "stuff" I mean "graphics" nine times of ten). Oh, and he's a total SSB philistine--that's just an inability to see past the cute little characters and crap, methinks. It's not just that he's being a fanboy, though that is a factor.

[Jaakko]

I dunno, seems to me that his gaming ideal is defined by the Xbox 360.

[Elok]

Yes, and it could be because he's a Microsoft fanboy, but he also has demonstrated a hard-on for CPU power and more traditional gaming methods, which would narrow it down to the X360 and the PS3. And I don't know anyone who supports the PS3. The last five "The PS3 is DOOMED XBox FTW" threads he's started have been dedicated to Kuci, myself and others mentioning the Wii and how fun it might be. Partly because it looks fun, but partly because it launches Asher into a blood frenzy like we see here. Nobody even bothers defending Sony anymore around here.