Hamas chief: Truce with Israel is over

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by dannubis
So I'll ask again, how many children did hamas kill lately ?

Hamas and the rest of the terrorist organizations have killed over 1000 people since october 2000.

Right now, Hamas is responsible for DAILY barrages of rockets on southern Israeli cities.

Rockets, which by the way TARGET CIVILIAN POPULATION AREAS.


Judging by such statistics could leave you with false impressions.
How many Nazi cities were bombarded by the Allies in 1945? How many Allied were bombarded by the Nazis in the same time?

Oh then obviously we can spot who's the agressor

Make a mistake once, yes... make a mistake 100 times and it is not a mistake anymore. You have dropped to the same level as them.

This is nonsense.
A mistake repeated 100 times is a really stupid mistake.

The war in Lebanon saw several Israelis dead, and dozens wounded by friendly fire mistakes.

I heard that a brigade commander directed air assault against a neighbourhood with HIS OWN forces.


War is a nasty bussiness that requires tons of coordination.

[MOBIUS]

Wasn't it a whole bunch of 'technical errors' that kicked off the whole Gaza kidnapping thing in the first place...?

"Oh sorry, we just wiped out your whole family having a picnic on the beach - but don't worry, it was only a technical error!"

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Elok
TBH, LOTM, your question does sort of presuppose that Israeli counterstrikes actually have some sort of effect on Hamas's willingness/ability to murder Jews. Don't they attack Israel's civilians at a more or less constant rate regardless of what happens? That being so, it would seem Israel's attacks are done entirely for psychological satisfaction...

Israeli attacks do have an effect on Hamas.

Killing militant leaders and professionals disrupts them of qualified people for months.

The essence of life for militants becomes to live hunted and in shadow, thereby spending only little of their time actually planning attacks, and most of their time hiding.

This greatly reduces their productivity.


Killing Hamas major leaders has actually gotten the cease fire agreements / status quo with Hamas in the first place.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
Wasn't it a whole bunch of 'technical errors' that kicked off the whole Gaza kidnapping thing in the first place...?

"Oh sorry, we just wiped out your whole family having a picnic on the beach - but don't worry, it was only a technical error!"

The Gaza beach incident is not really related to the kidnapping.

Mainly, since the kidnapping was planned months in advanced, as it takes about half a year to create such a tunnel and practice the needed drills.

Second, because if anything, it was the inner political situation where Hamas was pressured by Fatah, that caused the final "go", and raffled the political cards.


And third - the Gazan family was probably not killed by Israeli misfire. They either played with some old unexploded shells, or mistakenly found a temporary place for a palestinian made charge.

[MOBIUS]

Yeah yeah, whatever Mr Israeli Army Intel desk jockey...

A number of separate supposed 'accidents' killed a bunch of Palestinian civilians including a load of Children, in the run up to the kidnapping attack.

1) Just cos Israel has an entire army or nukes doesn't mean it 'plans' to use them (actually... ). The tunnel obviously was there for a long time, but the order to use it was not until there was sufficient reason for retaliation: the careless butchering of a few dozen civs.

2) BS - Israel murdered a bunch of civs during a number of attacks.

3) Siro, Siro, Siro... It was an Israeli Artillery shell - the Israeli army lied about it until they were forced to admit it! If you are going to lie to me, the trick is not to do it in an obvious manner where you are easily caught out! Basically you are a LIAR hoping not to be caught out. I mean your whole raison d'etre for being employed by the Israeli army is likely to be lying through your teeth and spin...

[MOBIUS]

P.S. In case someone didn't understand that last post...

SIROTNIKOV IS A LIAR!

He is in a position to know about the truth of the beach attack, he was found out. He does this sort of thing regularly!

[Sirotnikov]

Of course I'm in a position to know the truth. Just like anyone that reads news from reliable sources, who are actual journalists, instead of AP / Reuter reporter-hacks, who simply restate official declarations by either side's spokesmen.

However, seeing you foam around the mouth is quite entertaining indeed.

Maybe we ought to send a Mossad spec-ops. team to take a picture of you infront of your computer You ought to watch your windows



Btw, I also read in more depth in todays news about the technical error of the last few days.


Apparently there was a failure of the computerized aiming system. The system didn't work properly so it was replaced a day before the shooting, and wasn't tested in actual fire for correct setup, only "virtually". Then it was tested in actual fire, almost 12 hours before the shooting began.

All supposedly within limits of IDF regulations, but considering this wasn't exactly the "heat of combat" - more strict guidelines could have been followed.

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

Hamas and the rest of the terrorist organizations have killed over 1000 people since october 2000.

---

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that less than the number of civilians the IDF has killed in 2006 alone?

Who cares what you target, it's the actual kills that count.

EDIT: And Mobius, with your rhino-hippo-elephant style, It's a curse to be on the same side as you in debates like this...

[Elok]

Originally posted by Chemical Ollie
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that less than the number of civilians the IDF has killed in 2006 alone?

Who cares what you target, it's the actual kills that count.

Are you serious? It was my impression that the IDF is much, much, MUCH more powerful than Hamas. As such, they can launch massive military operations (in which a small percentage of bombs/what-have-you do go off course), while Hamas can only perform intermittent raids or bombings (which mostly target, and hit, civilians, because the IDF would kick their arse). To say that Hamas is more moral because they kill fewer people total than the IDF is to confuse impotence with moral virtue.

[Kuciwalker]

For instance, who was more moral, the USA or Italy in WW2?

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
For instance, who was more moral, the USA or Italy in WW2?

Which part of the war do you mean? Italy switched sides and joined the Allies in early 1944.

WW2 did not have any side that could claim a higher moral standard. USA didn't join the war for moral reasons, as most American history-revisionists today would claim, it tried to stay out as long as possible, but was eventually forced to join the war because the Axis formally declared war and started lethal attacks.

Both sides killed more innocents than they killed soldiers. Who carpet bombed Monte Cassino, and why?

On D-day alone, the allies killed more French civilians than they killed German soldiers.

USA allied with the Sovjet Union, one of the most evil dictatorships in the history of mankind.

USA and UK used weapons of mass destruction and massive fire bombings with no remorse.

[Kuciwalker]

Yeah, you've answered the question. And given you're answer, I'm not even going to bother.

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by Elok


Are you serious? It was my impression that the IDF is much, much, MUCH more powerful than Hamas. As such, they can launch massive military operations (in which a small percentage of bombs/what-have-you do go off course), while Hamas can only perform intermittent raids or bombings (which mostly target, and hit, civilians, because the IDF would kick their arse). To say that Hamas is more moral because they kill fewer people total than the IDF is to confuse impotence with moral virtue.

So being more powerful gives you the right to kill more civilians?

This current event is actually the first time I hear the IDF apologize for a killing, ever. Normally, they seem to be a trigger-happy bunch who don't give a rat's ass what they kill, as long as it's not their own peopöe.

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Yeah, you've answered the question. And given you're answer, I'm not even going to bother.

Because you rarely bother to back up your point-of-view with arguments, just one-liners without substance.

[Elok]

You don't have a "right" to kill anyone. But you're comparing collateral damage from attacks by a strong force to direct attacks on civilians by a weaker force. Both are bad, but the latter is worse because they are prevented from killing more innocents only by their lacking the power/resources to do so. I don't know how to put this more clearly, really.