Hamas chief: Truce with Israel is over

[Pekka]

"
As for the incident itself - it is another mistake which is quite common in warfare... if you act for long enough times, a mistake will eventually occur."

Yes, by mistake or by purpose, the result is dead kids on BOTH sides.

Do you see, there will be no peace. Both sides are right and wrong. And both sides actions result into death of many kids.

Surely the intent is essential and so targeting is worse, far worse than accidental, but accidentals include accepting the fact that it will happen, so it is not coincidental by nature.

There will be no peace, there's no chance for any country in the face of the earth to have peace when kids are getting killed.

So the question rather is, which one has to go. Well, Israel is a country, Hamas is not. Hamas has to go.

[dannubis]

Well said Pekka

The problem however is: how are you going to sell to the Palestinians the notion that Hamas has to go? The only message you are sending them if you try to do that is that they only can elect the guys we (=the west) like.

[Pekka]

Well, they understand it or don't. Hamas won't step down without a fight anyway.

You can say that there will be no peace with Hamas, and that you want to negotiate with someone else, someone they choose but then make a list of people you don't want to negotiate with, or if they are associated by thsoe people.

Say that you will have no dealings with Hamas what so ever, give a description of groups you will not accept peace with or real negotiations.

Then give something back, two way deals. Ask what they want in return. Try to come to some concensus and make those negotiations your goal.

I guess this is hwat has been done for the longest time though. Not really working. But just make sure everyone knows, we're not going to reach any final agreements with Hamas, as they can not be trusted and treated as a real leadership of anything.

IF they are not willing to let Hamas go, if the support is overwhelming and there's no development, well, I guess you need to start better propaganda and try to change the atmosphere anti-Hamas. Or you can always do war. I'd prefer propaganda with added reaction to strikes, so that Hamas can't claim anything. Then again, I guess Israel is doing this now.

Tough to say what works. I don't know. But what ever you do, you need to give your main demands, and listen what they demand. You say that this demand of Hamas is not going to go away. It is a burden, it is in the way of peace, choose someone else. Anyone, but not these people we are describing in our list.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Flip McWho
The point being that people are crying over the IDF killing innocent little kiddies because they expect a government to be better than a terrorist organisation and not kill innocent little kiddies.

No, people are crying over the IDF killing innocent little kiddies because they're PR spokesmen for Hamas trying to spin Europe.

[dannubis]

This is indeed a very reasonable way of thinking if you are not involved in the situation. Unfortunately nobody seems to want to back down and talk to each other like you know, normal people.

However, imagine the outcry if the Palestinian president (not talking about Hamas because, as you said, they don't want to talk anyway) would say he wanted to negotiate with everybody except Olmert, who started the latest military action.

The reaction would be pretty biased again don't you think ?

[dannubis]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


No, people are crying over the IDF killing innocent little kiddies because they're PR spokesmen for Hamas trying to spin Europe.

I remeber Europe being fully supportive of any US actions after 911. Where was the spinning then, bath room boy ?

[Kuciwalker]

The reaction on the part of Europe would; they'd probably say "oh, it's fair!" ignoring the fact that Hamas was a terrorist organization when it came into power and continues to be one.

[Pekka]

It's pretty obvious some poeple don't care about kids if they are associated with a country or relatives of people in Hamas or who are ideologically close to Hamas.

As long as there are Jesus camps training future Jesus warrios, I don't see who is worthy of any spin.

Where's the spin in 'IDF launched an attack against Hamas' then number of casualties.?? This is what I heard, period. It usually includs the attack Hamas has perfomed earlier and that it is a response to this attack.

Bunch of spinmeisters??? It's now spinning to report what happened in two sentences, not giving out a single opinion, adding that it was a response? It also said Israel had apologized for the innceont deaths. Was that a Hamas spin as well?

IF oyu want to blame European media, you should know European media.

The fact is, msot of you only know Guardian and maybe two other papers and now you know European media? Shiiit.... the less you know the more you know?

All I hear is **** these kids, they should have known better, it's the fault of Hamas.

If that is not uberbiased thinking then I don't know what is. And take the plugs off of your ears, I'm not defending Hamas nor am I attacking Israel with these statements. I'm just promoting common sense.

[Pekka]

"The reaction on the part of Europe would; they'd probably say "oh, it's fair!" ignoring the fact that Hamas was a terrorist organization when it came into power and continues to be one."

Either admit you're trolling or choose weapons you want to be owned with.

Back it up.

[dannubis]

you reelected a president who started a war of agression. 50 years ago you hanged people for that. and you tell us what europe would do ?

[LordShiva]

Pekka

[Pekka]

I just don't like when people are buying into stereotypes. "EUropean media is anti-Israel, European media blaa baa blaa", this is not a result of experience for most. This is repeating someone elses words.

I suggest you follow the media, the general concensus of media, THEN say what you will and then back it up.

But when enough people repeat the same stereotype, surely it becomes the truth? I just don't like the adoption of strong accusations without any experience or back up.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by dannubis
you reelected a president who started a war of agression. 50 years ago you hanged people for that. and you tell us what europe would do ?

Consider it the difference between Type I and Type II error.

[Pekka]

Of course I only speak from my own experience. And I don't read Guardian. Of course there are papers that are full of crap.

I tend to never read news from places that have a stance on any issue. In my opinion, they should stick to reporting and not giving out opinions.

Factual reporting and nothing else. IDF responded and attacked Hamas. People died, including kids. Israel apologizes for deaths of innocent people but vowes to continue striking Hamas.

Fact.

There's just no spin in that. It's hard for a man to find a legit news organization that does not include Hamas into a terrorist group. This is what has been now suggested, that Hamas has not conducted in terrorism. This is a false statement. I'd like to read the paper that says otherwise.

Or that Europeans don't think Hamas has anything to do with terrorism? Come on.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Flip McWho
The point being that people are crying over the IDF killing innocent little kiddies because they expect a government to be better than a terrorist organisation and not kill innocent little kiddies.

I'm still confused about this assertion and the fact you haven't really answered it. Isn't Hamas a government?