John Paul II will return and take over the world

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by Flip McWho
Religions fundamentally about politics. It's about structuring society, or was till it became individualised.

Hm,
I rather think of the beginnings of christianity, i.e. the original teachings of Jesus (or more exactly, what christians believe to be the original teachings of Jesus, i.e. those things written within the new testimony).
They seemed to strictly separate worldly matters from spritual matters (for example the teaching about giving the emeror what belongs to the emperor and god what belongs to god). And (in the beginning) you didn´t have any hierarchy yet (at least as far as I remember from the new testimony)
Only later the christian church began became to establish itself (and its followers weren´t persecuted anymore) you saw the church becoming a mighty political power (with political organisations like the catholic church which developed to some kind of state during the medieval ages with a strict hierarchy.
But IMHO these organizations don´t have anything to do with the basic principles of christian faith (i.e. the absolute christian ideals), but are rather something into which the christian faith mutated after millenia.

[Flip McWho]

Ozzy,

Saying do the right thing because it is right is circular argumentation and doesn't answer anything.

First you have to define doing the 'good thing', which I would argue is totally dependant on the individual, to some degree. There are something things that are universal to humans as a specie, just as there are somethings that are universal to elephants as a specie.

I think that having sympathy/empathy goes a long way towards making people do the 'right thing' in regards to their relationships with other people.

[Flip McWho]

Proteus_MST,

Aye I agree to some extent, mostly with the early Christianity part.. It's just for me, religion is fundamentally about organising your life in accordance to some standard, most religions are absolute in that standard so most people make the mistaken assumption that the standard applies to all humanity. Thus it becomes political.

[Impaler[WrG]]

Nietzche is often portrayed by Theologians advocating some kind of Barbaric might makes right world or in supporting Natzism. This is a gross distortion, I sugjest people thourougly read and ruminate on his philosophy before jumping to such conclusion.

In the context of moral atheist Neitzche belived them to be the fufillment and self-negation of Christianity rather then a counter movment. A brief but well writen analysis can be found HERE

Once one realizes modern atheism is actualy a more evolved, full blown expression of Christian moral values the fact that atheist consistently unhold christian morals better then so called Christians make sense. The crutch of god is cast away and the athiest follows his moral code without external reinforcment.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Spiffor
I'm not concerned about my soul, and I'm nothing likef that

Oh come on, admit it, you never pass up a chance for a good pillaging.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
Nietzche is often portrayed by Theologians advocating some kind of Barbaric might makes right world or in supporting Natzism. This is a gross distortion, I sugjest people thourougly read and ruminate on his philosophy before jumping to such conclusion.

Those you critique Nietzsche in the way Ozzy did usually have never read him. I can understand how religious folk may balk at Nietzsche because of his utter individualism and his opposition to the herd mentality (which religion needs to survive, really).

[GePap]

Originally posted by OzzyKP


The fact that you want to do the "good thing" means there is such a thing as a "good thing". Where does that come from? Not a book or a slab of stone or an infomercial. It is something deeper than that I'd argue, something as natural and part of human life as phyisics. And I don't think that came about through evolution.

And yet, it did. Humans are inherently social creatures and thus need to develop a social dynamic. You can see this dynamic in social creatures such as elephants and ceteans.

Human life happens within the physical world, and therefore is grounded in the physical characteristics of the universe. I don;t see how that makes it "part of human life." The truth is the opposite.

So no, I don't say people should do the right thing because a big mean ol' God is standing over them with an iron rod ready to twack them if they slip. Do the right thing, because it is right, and because it is right for a reason, and it is part of a deeper meaning and truth to the universe.

And yet different cultures at different times have come to different conclusions about what these absoulte ethics are. That is more than enough evidence as to the lack of any "real" absolute ethic. Such codes are as much a human invention as any regular law. And have no meaning outside of human society.