John Paul II will return and take over the world

[Heresson]

I am. Of course, bloodbath of Jerusalem was outrageous, so was attacking Byzantium during the IV crusade etc, but it is hardly fault of the church, and anyway, such things happened during all wars, and similar or worse crimes were commited by muslim side as well (slaughter of Antioch especially, but also of Acre, and of many more cities).
Crusades were a defensive movement, not once did they enter territories that were christian lands conquered by muslims. Majority of population of lands conquered were christians.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
If you don't believe in a soul or afterlife and believe that when you die your existance is simply stamped out, then why strive to be "good" at all? Why not do whatever you can to get every temporal pleasure and power you can? That seems to be the only purpose for life under such a worldview.

Just think more, and don't stick to what "seems" to be. Nearly all atheists on 'Poly are decent people, and not just because they fear the police. Ask yourself why, and actually look for answers (because there are answers, otherwise we 'Poly atheists would be different to what we currently are).

I'll give you some hints about me (I don't claim to speak for all atheists):
- I don't think that temporal pleasure is a goal worth every sacrifice. Personally, I intend to be happy with my life, and one element of feeling happy about my life is to do what I think is good.

- Over the years, my moral compass has been shaped by my education, personality, and experience. An important aspect of my morality is my support for the golden rule. Not because some god told me to, but because I think everybody benefits, including myself.

- You have developed some non-religious values yourself. Your anti-ageist bible wasn't inspired by your religion Your cause definitely has some roots in your cultural background (which includes the enlightenment, the Anglo-saxon liberalism, and christianty in the mix), but it doesn't solely come from your religion.
Now that you're getting old, why do you want to do the good thing (the youth-rights thing), despite it not being commanded by your God? Find an answer to that question, and you might understand why I, too, want to do the good thing.

[Flip McWho]

My position is pretty effectively summed up by Spiffor as well.

Jon Miller,

Just like all generalisations it is not always applicable, I was describing a certain type of Christians.

Though it saddens me that the one thing that all Christians have in comman is that they view humanity as something inherently flawed.

[Barnabas]

Atheists have certainly more pragmatic ethics than christians

(by christians I mean catholics which is what I know, there are thousands of protestants churches, so I cant speak for them)

A christian has to always do what is right no matter the consequences, for example,

if you have someone innocent hidden in your house that a mob wants to kill, and the mob goes to your house and asks you, is he there? you can not lie and say, he isnt here, you can chose to not answer, or say something true which may decieve them like, like having him hidden in the back garden and telling the mob he isnt in these rooms, even of because of that he may end up being discovered.

An atheist would just lie, say he isnt here, I saw him taking a cab and getting out of town, something like that.

And in occasions in which by doing little "evil" a lot of good can be achieved, like the fantasy example of going back in time with a time machine, to kill hitler while he is still young to avoid the 60 million deaths, a catholic always has to refrain from doing that little evil.

I never expect atheists to be ethical in the way a catholic should, I always expect them to be pragmatic, and use their judgement for what is convenient.

Sometimes in this world, doing something bad, has no bad consequences at all, and people may tell themselves, why not doing it?
so fear of hell or whatever is necessary to remind people that maybe in the next world the bad consequences will manifest.

You have to do good always even if it ruins your life

[Flip McWho]

How can something be bad if it doesn't have bad consequences?

Atheists are more pragmatic simply because they do not try to hold themselves to some absolute ideal.

[Proteus_MST]

Even the ideal of non-atheists doesn´t seem to be absolute.

Look for example at goid in the threee abrahamic religions:
In the old testimony he is described as a being that loves his own people (the jewish tribes) no matter how many bad things they do (slaughtering innocents, slavery and the like). Against other tribes he seems to be rather merciless and doesn´t have any scruples to order his people to destroy other tribes (including women and children) that mess with the jewish or sit on a place of land that the jwews should get, or to cast plagues onto lands that kill thousands of innocents, just because the ruler of the land doesn´t want to let the jewish people go.
But aside from this he seems to be rather uninterested in other tribes than the jewish ones.

In the christian religion he seems to be someone who cares about how the people treat each other, but doesn´t seem to be interested in politics. He seems to be a rather peaceful god, who rather wants to convert people by giving examples than by using fire and sword.

And in the Muslim religion he seems to be warlike and someone involved in conquest and politics, with the sharia and the rule that no lands that are muslim should ever be given back to non muslim rulers.

Same goes for the rules laid out for the humans by the god of these three abrahamic religions. In all three religions they differ in some way or the other.

So even if within their own religion their ideal seems to be absolute, it isn´t absolute if compared to other religions.

[Terra Nullius]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
I am skeptical of the whole notion of "I'm an atheist, but I live a good moral life anyways".

I'm sceptical of the whole notion of "I'm an atheist and therefore I don't believe in an after-life."

It's almost as bad as the "I'm a scientist and therefore I don't believe in God" stuff.

... which is almost always conflated with "I'm a scientist and therefore there is no after-life."

If I say killing Jews and Gypsys is "good" because they are "inferior people" am I just as right as you are?

Yes.

Unless you have some pre-determined definition of "good."

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Flip McWho
My position is pretty effectively summed up by Spiffor as well.

Jon Miller,

Just like all generalisations it is not always applicable, I was describing a certain type of Christians.

Though it saddens me that the one thing that all Christians have in comman is that they view humanity as something inherently flawed.

Look at it.

JM

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Flip McWho
Though it saddens me that the one thing that all Christians have in comman is that they view humanity as something inherently flawed.

Me too, not just Christianity but any worldview in general that seeks to emasculate humanity by ascribing power and responsibility to a 'higher' entity. Like leftist economics: "People are oppressed and powerless (and therefore have no responsibility for their well-being), only a strong government can protect them," or religion: "People have no power to be good (and therefore cannot be responsible for not being good), and need a 'God' to save them or punish them or have 'plans' for them, etc."

The world would be so much better if it was universally recognised that there is nothing more noble and powerful than the human spirit (of course, I mean this in the non-spiritual sense), and that no appeal to any sort of higher power is necessary.

[Terra Nullius]

Originally posted by LordShiva
The world would be so much better if it was universally recognised that there is nothing more noble and powerful than the human spirit

I'd be very much inclined to agree.

But isn't that just more attachment?
Attachment to the idea that the world could be better than it is. Grasping at the idea that life would be so much better if everyone could simply be convinced to stop appealing to a higher power.

[Heresson]

There was a branch of early church, called pelagianism, that claimed that people can by themselves overcome their weaknesses and be saved, and there were people like this even before Jesus.

[Straybow]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST
And especially look at the thnings done by islam. For one the terrorists who believed they would do a god thing with flying the lanes into the WTC and Pentagon and that they would be rewarded with lots of virgins in their afterlife).

For example thing of the burning girls school in Saudi Arabia. The girls which wanted to flee from the fire were beat back into the building by the religion guards. Why? Because they were not proper attired (with headscarfs) to go out of the building. As a result most of these girls died in the fire.

The religious guards probably thought they would do a good thing to the girls, because they might loose their lifes, but at least they wouldn´t burn in hell in their afterlife.

To anyone not adhering to this religion (or believing in an afterlife) however, this thing must seem just cruel.

Don't you see the connection? They have to make sure there are 72 virgins who die for each murdering "martyr" to enjoy.

BTW, sharia has nothing to do with an afterlife. Nowhere does the Qu'ran say that. Sharia is just the law that applies to chattel.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by Straybow

Originally posted by Proteus_MST
And especially look at the thnings done by islam. For one the terrorists who believed they would do a god thing with flying the lanes into the WTC and Pentagon and that they would be rewarded with lots of virgins in their afterlife).

For example thing of the burning girls school in Saudi Arabia. The girls which wanted to flee from the fire were beat back into the building by the religion guards. Why? Because they were not proper attired (with headscarfs) to go out of the building. As a result most of these girls died in the fire.

The religious guards probably thought they would do a good thing to the girls, because they might loose their lifes, but at least they wouldn´t burn in hell in their afterlife.

To anyone not adhering to this religion (or believing in an afterlife) however, this thing must seem just cruel.

Don't you see the connection? They have to make sure there are 72 virgins who die for each murdering "martyr" to enjoy.

BTW, sharia has nothing to do with an afterlife. Nowhere does the Qu'ran say that. Sharia is just the law that applies to chattel.

Not directly with the afterlife, but with morality.
Leading a moral life (which includes obeying the sharia) as a way to get a good standing in the afterlife.

[Flip McWho]

Even the ideal of non-atheists doesn´t seem to be absolute.

I meant absolute within their own frame. In other words I'm not comparing God across the religions.

In the christian religion he seems to be someone who cares about how the people treat each other, but doesn´t seem to be interested in politics.

Religions fundamentally about politics. It's about structuring society, or was till it became individualised.

Look at it.

At humanity? I agree theres a heck of alot of screwed up people, but that doesn't mean we're inherently flawed, because by saying flawed you're measuring us against some kind of yardstick. An arbitrary yardstick in the case of religion, imho.

"I'm an atheist and therefore I don't believe in an after-life.

That's why I'm an agnostic for both things. You can't emprically prove either the non-existence/existence of God or an afterlife, but you can say which ones are less likely to be true by looking at the assumption and arguments constructed.

LordShiva

One thing about the leftist economics though is that people have more power in a collective, though I don't think that should be the government, it should be the unions.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Just think more, and don't stick to what "seems" to be. Nearly all atheists on 'Poly are decent people, and not just because they fear the police. Ask yourself why, and actually look for answers (because there are answers, otherwise we 'Poly atheists would be different to what we currently are).

I'll give you some hints about me (I don't claim to speak for all atheists):
- I don't think that temporal pleasure is a goal worth every sacrifice. Personally, I intend to be happy with my life, and one element of feeling happy about my life is to do what I think is good.

- Over the years, my moral compass has been shaped by my education, personality, and experience. An important aspect of my morality is my support for the golden rule. Not because some god told me to, but because I think everybody benefits, including myself.

- You have developed some non-religious values yourself. Your anti-ageist bible wasn't inspired by your religion Your cause definitely has some roots in your cultural background (which includes the enlightenment, the Anglo-saxon liberalism, and christianty in the mix), but it doesn't solely come from your religion.
Now that you're getting old, why do you want to do the good thing (the youth-rights thing), despite it not being commanded by your God? Find an answer to that question, and you might understand why I, too, want to do the good thing.

Many people misunderstand faith thinking it is all about following rules. As if humans were just doing their own thing and one day some random deity or guy comes along with a big rule book and said "ok, now you have to change everything and obey these rules."

The fact that you want to do the "good thing" means there is such a thing as a "good thing". Where does that come from? Not a book or a slab of stone or an infomercial. It is something deeper than that I'd argue, something as natural and part of human life as phyisics. And I don't think that came about through evolution.

So no, I don't say people should do the right thing because a big mean ol' God is standing over them with an iron rod ready to twack them if they slip. Do the right thing, because it is right, and because it is right for a reason, and it is part of a deeper meaning and truth to the universe.